2 Stroke oil as an additive to Diesel fuel

[D4D Addicted PP Member Find all posts View Profile Close D4D]

Re: 2 Stroke oil as an additive to Diesel fuel

Wrong again :roll:

I have a letter from Toyota Australia stating that they support 5% biodiesel in their diesel engines. I will consider Toyota Australia to be authoritative on that point.

So we have different information as my advice also came from TMCA. No fuel additives or biodiesel for the D4D. It's quite clear, they even give you a pamphlet explaining this when you buy a new vehicle :roll: Do you even own a D4D?

[lawrance Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close lawrance]

Re: 2 Stroke oil as an additive to Diesel fuel

Let's not rattle on anymore if you are not interested in anything other than debating for the sake of being argumentative. :roll: You have your pamphet and I have a letter. No big shakes eitherway for vehicles that have exceeded the warranty coverage, as Toyota wouldn't really mind what fuel goes into an owner's tank by then.

Back to those who are interested in the topic, a number of drivers have even posted that their wives had noticed their engines running smoother or quieter, not knowing that the fuel has two stroke in it. Now that's a pretty significant observation about the effect of less than 0.2% of two stroke in a diesel engine. :wink: Like any change, a trial should extend over a couple of tankfuls, before a conclusion can be drawn.

[vk2ss55 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close vk2ss55]

Re: 2 Stroke oil as an additive to Diesel fuel

Guys
This reminds me of back in the 2 stroke bike days when adding 2 stroke reduced the octane level of the petrol . This was rectified by using Castrol R but you could smell it in the exhaust . Maybe modern 2 stroke doesn't do this . What's the scientific reasoning for the reduction in fuel consumption as 200 to 1 is a very weak mixture ?
I was talking to a guy towing a 3 tonne Bushmaster and he reckoned the 2 stroke reduced his fuel consumption by a couple of litres/100k's .
Cheers
Ross

[tassie tiger Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close tassie tiger]

Re: 2 Stroke oil as an additive to Diesel fuel

The ONLY benefit is that it might make it a little quieter. But the only thing that it can possibly make quieter is the fuel pump. And they are built to tolerance. So pumping through sticky oil is going to do MORE damage by gunking it up than to leave it out.

At least you've tested it first hand, and drawn your own conclusions. For you, your criteria is fuel consumption and fuel costs. For someone else this may not be their concern but rather for the longevity of their pride and joy for many years after their warranty has expired.

To each their own.

I am a diesel mechanic and have rebuilt hundreds of engines over the years. I am not a diesel injection specialist but have dealt with them a lot. So based on that experience I still went into the experiment with an open mind. Lets see what happens when a bog stock vehicle with a recorded fuel usage is subjected to the test. I used the recommended oil but cant recall which one I used. Will have a look in the shed for the old bottle. The results were what they were. No benefit just added cost.

Rattly does not mean 'bad' or worn or any such thing when it comes to diesels. The ONLY place the oil can go is through the fuel system. Sure it gets injected into the cylinder but it is atomised and burns instantly. It cant stop any rattling anywhere but in the fuel system - injectors/pumps. It cant stop any rattles in the oil system.

Diesel fuel injection pumps and injectors are manufactured to tolerance within microns. They are machined to be X in size. Not X plus this much oil surrounding them to take any play out of them (play is rattle). The diesel injection specialist never says: "do you want me to close the tolerances up to make it less rattly". They recondition to EXACTLY what the engineer that designed the component set. And when done correctly work perfect and last the service period expected. And of course the tolerances take into account fluctuations in the viscosity of the diesel.

A worn component is just as bad for component life as one that is too tight (tight = heat = wear). EG: If you build a 'tight' engine it will run hotter and fail just as fast as a 'loose' engine. You build it to the correct specs and bobs your uncle.

So as argumentative as this may sound its not a case of "to each their own", its simply a case of Occams Razor. I put 165litres of diesel and the suggested amount of 2stroke oil and compared the result with previous usage. The result was there was no benefit.

cheers

[lawrance Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close lawrance]

Re: 2 Stroke oil as an additive to Diesel fuel

G'day Tassie Tiger,

Good relevant discussion points that you've written down, and also full credit for sharing your experience with the two stroke.

I would like to just say that first of all, I am not a believer that adding two stroke into diesel fuel will improve fuel economy. I think that the minute amount of added oil in the diesel fuel couldn't possibly affect the ignition or combustion of the diesel/air mixture substantially enough to improve economy. That is the sort of stuff that LPG fumigation can achieve, but that's another topic altogether.

I believe that the users who have added two stroke to their diesel fuel are probably driving with a bit more care, because they are now monitoring the effects to their engine. If the two stroke oil did in fact aid the combustion process and yielded better economy, then I'd be very surprised, and it would be a nice side benefit to have. I certainly wouldn't go to the trouble of adding two stroke to get better economy, because the cost of the oil would be higher than the improvement in fuel consumption.

Just for the calculations, a 4 litre bottle of Castrol Activ 2T is $40 from Supacheap, so a 900ml dose for 180 litres of diesel equates to $9 additional per tank, which buys another 7.5 litres of fuel. Hardly worth it for the fuel savings, which you've also mentioned.

The purpose of adding the oil would be for entirely different reason, which is basically to restore smooth running of the injectors, particularly during cold morning starts where some owners are battling the dreaded injector rattling issue, and continue to have this issue even after their original injectors have been replaced by the newer "diamond tip" injectors.

I want to draw an analogy about engine noises and the potential that reducing engine noises could increase the longevity of an engine.

Being a diesel mechanic, you no doubt have done a few oil changes to diesel engines. Let's just say you've been using Brand X of an engine oil for a motor and every single time you change the oil, you notice that the engine is smoother and quieter. No problems with that brand of oil. Then all of a sudden, the manufacturer of that Brand X oil discontinues the product, so its no longer available. You resort to a dfferent Brand Y engine oil. Brand Y meets all the same specifications as Brand X, but when you put it into the engine, it makes more tappet noises. No doubt, if it were your own vehicle, you'd naturally try another brand of oil that meets the same spec required by your engine, and which keeps the engine running quietly like it used to do with Brand X oil.

Coming back to the two stroke oil in diesel fuel topic, if you had a tank full of fuel which makes your engine run very noisy and rattles in the morning but found another type of fuel that makes your engine run perceptively smoother and it doesn't rattle in the morning, but it cost $9 more to fill your tank, would you wear the added cost even if fuel economy was not improved?

We know that some (not all) Prado and Hilux D4D owners are experiencing issues with the diesel fuel sold in Australia, causing injector issues. Whilst this is fine for owners under warranty, what is the longer term view for owners wishing to keep their vehicles long after the warranty expires? Having to replace injectors is very costly and we've seen first hand reports from owners where the problem only re-emerges down the track. Clearly something is not right somewhere. Toyota have been building D4D motors for a very long time now and sold in many different markets and so it can't be solely attributed to a manufacturing or design issue. I would say that a big contributing factor to the injector issue would be the lack of lubricity in today's Ultra Low Sulphur Diesel fuel. This is the one major change that has come about only in the last few years.

If it's as simple as adding $9 worth of two stroke oil of the right specs into the tank during each fuel up to improve injector reliability, I'd say that this would be a very cheap workaround until the quality of diesel fuel is improved in Australia.

Is there anyone out there with a D4D that is out of warranty who would like to trial adding two stroke to their tank to evaluate if it reduces or eliminates the cold start diesel rattle in the morning? If you wish to trial it anonymously, feel free to PM me for a chat. :P

[johna Member Find all posts View Profile Close johna]

Re: 2 Stroke oil as an additive to Diesel fuel

I have been using the 2 stroke oil for over 30,000 klms so far, and it definitely makes the injectors quieter. (2003 old model oiler)
Have had better fuel economy on last trip with the van to Queensland, but mainly due to slowing down from 100-110 kph to 90-95 kph.
Gained another 200 k's to the tank full.
Not worried about the increased cost of the oil, just like the quieter rattling under the bonnet.
If it helps the motor etc live longer, more savings in my pocket.
Last service 150,000 k cost a bloody fortune as well as installing a DP Chip (should have done it years ago) so wish to keep the old tank for a while yet.

Wouldn't be surprised if "some" of the D4D injector problems were fuel related seeing as the sulphur content has been cut dramatically.

Can some of you diesel guru's explain how adding a slight amount of oil to the Diesel fuel (which is an oil basically) can damage the engine ?
Would love to see a decent responce rather than rubbishing what has been going around for many years overseas.
Much has been discussed/written on many forums right around the world on this issue, and apparently the Germans have been adding oil to the fuel in the Mercedes for years.

:? :?

[tassie tiger Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close tassie tiger]

Re: 2 Stroke oil as an additive to Diesel fuel

Can some of you diesel guru's explain how adding a slight amount of oil to the Diesel fuel (which is an oil basically) can damage the engine ?


:? :?

Here is how it can damage an engine;

What the issue is, well for this diesel mechanic anyway, is that you are running oil through a system that is not designed to have oil run through it.

Diesel injectors and pumps dont need to be lubricated because diesel is a lubricant in itself. As in my earlier post, they are machined to exacting standards. Those standards do not include adding oil into the mix.

And for those suggesting that a ratio of 200:1 is not much it is worth remembering that two stroke engines (brushcutters/chainsaws) run 50:1 as the ONLY lubrication for the engine.

Think about that for a minute - a two stroke engines lubrication comes from 1 part oil to 50 parts fuel and the bearings are lubricated with that mix swirling through the crankcase and leaving a film of oil on the pistons. When you pull down a two stroke engine what do you get. Carbon deposits on the piston that you dont get with a four stroke engine. Why? - Because the oil that does the lubricating also coats surfaces that dont need to be lubricated. Piston crowns and the combustion chamber does not need lubricating. The oil 'burns' on top of the piston and creates carbon.

If 50:1 can prevent a two stroke from seizing then what is happening to the 200:1 oil mix that is running through the fuel injection system where it is not designed to be. What is it coating?

I have never rebuilt a diesel that has been run with two stroke oil in the fuel. But I will hazard a guess here and say that if a two stroke engine running a higher octane fuel ends up with carbon on the pistons then the same would probably occur with a diesel that has had two stroke oil run through it.

What causes damage to diesel engine combustion chambers? - Pre-ignition of the diesel flame path due to carbon deposits caused by excess oil consumption or incorrect injector patterns (which is why you need to service the injectors at the correct service intervals to ensure the pattern is correct). If you end up with large carbon deposits on a piston it does two things.
1. Changes the balance of the piston
2. Creates an incredible hot spot on the piston that causes the piston to hole and the engine is destroyed.

The concerns over the loss of lubrication from reduced sulphur diesel is addressed through the adding of lubricants at the refinery;

From shell - Will my diesel engine require additional lubrication as a result of using a low sulphur fuel?

Sulphur content is linked to the lubricating properties of the fuel and some low sulphur fuels may require additives to provide lubrication to fuel pumps and injection systems.

Shell addresses this at the refining stage so you do not need to introduce additives into the fuel. Shell Diesel 10 will continue to be tested to ensure that they provide adequate lubrication.

One of the benefits of low sulphur diesel is longer injector life as they dont carbon up like old diesel fuel did. What do you think running two stroke through them will do?

Yep it may make them quieter - but they dont need to be quiet, they just need to do the job they are designed to do.

There appears to be a problem with D4D injectors - if this is making them quieter that is not a good thing, it is masking a design fault.

The only time I would consider adding two stroke (other than my experiment) and when I see the ad from Toyota;

THE NEW PRADO - NOW WITH TWO STROKE AUTO INJECTION!

[lawrance Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close lawrance]

Re: 2 Stroke oil as an additive to Diesel fuel

Found a thread on another public 4x4 forum regarding two stroke oil and a big word of warning - it's 20 pages long.

Contributors to the thread have various makes of 4x4s and there seems to be quite a number of people who have reported fuel consumption benefits, which I still find hard to believe. Nonetheless, the general concensus seems to be that the reduction in diesel engine noises is sufficently beneficial to keep using two stroke in the diesel fuel.

http://www.4wdaction.com.au/forum/viewt ... 54&t=76845

I am glad to see that Shell is now stating that their Diesel 10 product will be continually monitored to ensure that it's got sufficient lubricity. That's kinda like saying (if you read between the lines) that ULSD has an inherent lubricity issue.

[maxjj Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close maxjj]

Re: 2 Stroke oil as an additive to Diesel fuel

Why not use you old sump oil? :twisted:

I will stick to putting diesel only on my car. Extra hp pull the other one. Where from thin air?

its worth doing a google on "lubricity and wear scar of diesel" . Standard and design spec of engines is 460cm as it was with sulfur in the fuel.
BP use 460 as a limit, but intidate its typically 400. They add additives.
http://www.bp.com/liveassets/bp_interne ... Diesel.pdf


However, it appears that there maybe benefit from adding some biodiesel depending on what it is made from, http://www.thaiscience.info/journals/Ar ... diesel.pdf

4. Conclusions
The effects of biodiesel from palm and jatropha oils
on improving the lubricity properties of ultra-low sulfur
diesel were investigated via the high-frequency reciprocating
rig technique, with the following findings:
1. The lubricity of ultra low sulfur diesel (6 ppm)
does not meet the diesel standard of 460 ?m WS1.4.
2. The lubricity property of biodiesel used as an
ultra low sulfur diesel additive is varied dependent on the
source and amount of the biodiesel.
3. Biodiesel can be used as a lubricity additive to
ultra low sulfur diesel with as little as 0.25-0.5% blends.
4. Biodiesel improves the lubricity property by film
formation preventing mechanical contact between the two
metal parts.
5. Jatropha biodiesel is a superior lubricity additive
than the palm biodiesel due to the longer carbon chains of
the fatty acid in jatropha oil as opposed to palm oil.

this is a good read, mentions 2 stroke, - product 7 may in fact damage things.
http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/showth ... p?t=177728

[chester Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close chester]

Re: 2 Stroke oil as an additive to Diesel fuel

OK forget the rest of it and lets break it down to simple non mechanical maths.

Lets assume that you can get 3% better fuel economy with it. Taking and average range for the prado of 1200kms ( i dont want to hear about your 1600km economy runs cause i think ya full of it) a 3% improvement on 1200ks will get you about 40kms further down the road.

On the flip side you can get 40kms further down the road with 5l of extra diesel.

So lets add it up to get the same distance further down the road with 3% better fuel economy or chucking in an extra 5 litres of diesel

1l of 2 stroke oil = about 11 dollars
5l of diesel at 1.30 =$6.50

So as well as putting a product in your vehicle where the writings indicate the only scientific testing that has been done has the equivelent repeatable results rate the same as brewing scotch in a bathtub. You are actually going to spend more money to do so!!!

[mjrandom Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close mjrandom]

Re: 2 Stroke oil as an additive to Diesel fuel

I wouldn't be chucking 2 stroke in with the diesel regardless of the l/100km or noise benefits. Just like tt said it leaves residue which is not meant to be in your injectors or pump. My opinion, you do what you want.....

[D4D Addicted PP Member Find all posts View Profile Close D4D]

Re: 2 Stroke oil as an additive to Diesel fuel

Let's not rattle on anymore if you are not interested in anything other than debating for the sake of being argumentative. :roll: You have your pamphet and I have a letter. No big shakes eitherway for vehicles that have exceeded the warranty coverage, as Toyota wouldn't really mind what fuel goes into an owner's tank by then.

Not being argumentative at all, just expressing my opinion as are you. Fuel goes in the fuel filler and oil goes in the oil filler, pretty simple really. If you are so keen on this idea why don't you try it in your Prado? Oh that's right you don't own a Prado. So why are you here again?

[AJ120 Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close AJ120]

Re: 2 Stroke oil as an additive to Diesel fuel

God i love a good stoush..............eer i mean healthy debate

For my 2 cents worth, i think i will be sticking with diesel only in my Prado. As for fuel economy, you only have to read the various posts on this site to realize that heaps of people are obsessed with what economy they are getting, not to mention all the grey nomads you see carefully recording every drop they put into their tanks at the servo's. Anyway i think this falls into the same category as Hiclones and those tablets that were doing the rounds a few years ago and probably a few others, If someone came up with an effective way to add something to a vehicle that would genuinly make it cheaper to run by using less fuel, they would only need to tell one person about it, then stand back and wait to be innundated with the sales.

BTW i am not one of those that obsesses about fuel economy, the prado uses what it uses and so long as i have a rough idea to plan fuel stops then thats good enough for me.

Cheers Andrew

[Chriso57 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Chriso57]

Re: 2 Stroke oil as an additive to Diesel fuel

BTW i am not one of those that obsesses about fuel economy, the prado uses what it uses and so long as i have a rough idea to plan fuel stops then thats good enough for me.

Couldn't agree more.

Chriso

[tassie tiger Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close tassie tiger]

Re: 2 Stroke oil as an additive to Diesel fuel

Do you fellas see the irony in this

I dont think we are driving diesels to feel that unbridled power throbbing beneath us :shock: