2 Stroke oil as an additive to Diesel fuel

[AJ120 Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close AJ120]

Re: 2 Stroke oil as an additive to Diesel fuel

Do you fellas see the irony in this

I dont think we are driving diesels to feel that unbridled power throbbing beneath us :shock:

I understand what you are saying, when i say im not obsessed with fuel economy (obsessed might be a bit strong a word but you get my drift) i didnt say that i wasnt interested in fuel economy or getting better fuel economy. The extent of my fuel consumption testing extends usually to the first tank on a long trip, Because i set the trip meter at the start of a big trip, on the first fuel up i can do a quick calculation, usually in my head to get a rough idea what i use. Compare this to others like yourself who go to the trouble of using the fuelly program or carrying a log book.

So my point is, if i, who takes only a mild interest in fuel consumption is willing to read and contribute to a thread like this in the interest of saving on fuel costs, others who are far more passionate on the subject would be shouting from the rooftops if a genuine economical way to save fuel was found. As Chester was saying a few posts back, even it does save you fuel it probably won't save you fuel costs.

A bit off topic but one of the best things about a diesel Prado for saving fuel costs it the 180 litre tank, on our recent trip to cape york our travelling companions were getting almost identical economy, when we filled up twice in a row at the same place litres used was usually identical. Yet on more than 1 occasion i was able to keep driving past the expensive outback bowser and fill up in the larger centres saving as much as 60cents/litre on one occasion.

Cheers Andrew

[tassie tiger Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close tassie tiger]

Re: 2 Stroke oil as an additive to Diesel fuel

Yeah i was just stirring the porridge.

I think this is one of the great things about prados. Either engine, by comparison with other vehicles, are great. I love filling the prado up once a month and being able to drive from melbourne to the Mid North Coast of NSW in one go .

Luckily I have been monitoring my fuel consumption since getting the prado (bog stock), mainly to track what differences occur as its modified. I have already seen a .5l increase on going up one size of tyre alone.

This is one of those threads that will go around in circles. Its a real "yeah but" argument. My experiment shows it for what it is, internet garbage. If its going to work it will work when you try it. I tried it over 165 litres in the exact conditions that it is used for - family taxi every day - and there was no difference. Engines dont need time to develop or get used to fuel, they just do what physics demands of them.

If you lower the octane (2stroke will lower it) then efficiency is lowered. You cant get increased economy through lower efficiency.

So the economy is a dead argument.

So the "yeah but" is its quieter. Okay, maybe it is, but its irrelevant. The motor is designed to do what it does and doesnt need to be quieter. It is what it is, and the quietness comes from an area where the noise emitted is not an issue.

Nothing is going to last longer because its quieter.

And the kicker is that 2 stroke is not designed to go into your combustion chamber. Its a lubricant, the chamber doesnt need lubricating. Using my prado as an example, if I were to use 2stroke as suggested I would be putting 142 litres of two stroke into it over 200,000ks. Thats 142 litres of oil being burnt in the combustion chamber that is not designed to be in there.

What possible result can that have other than carboning the pistons.

I think we will see in about 5 to 10 years time what the outcome is.

[johna Member Find all posts View Profile Close johna]

Re: 2 Stroke oil as an additive to Diesel fuel

Yeah i was just stirring the porridge.

I think this is one of the great things about prados. Either engine, by comparison with other vehicles, are great. I love filling the prado up once a month and being able to drive from melbourne to the Mid North Coast of NSW in one go .

Luckily I have been monitoring my fuel consumption since getting the prado (bog stock), mainly to track what differences occur as its modified. I have already seen a .5l increase on going up one size of tyre alone.

This is one of those threads that will go around in circles. Its a real "yeah but" argument. My experiment shows it for what it is, internet garbage. If its going to work it will work when you try it. I tried it over 165 litres in the exact conditions that it is used for - family taxi every day - and there was no difference. Engines dont need time to develop or get used to fuel, they just do what physics demands of them.

If you lower the octane (2stroke will lower it) then efficiency is lowered. You cant get increased economy through lower efficiency.

So the economy is a dead argument.

So the "yeah but" is its quieter. Okay, maybe it is, but its irrelevant. The motor is designed to do what it does and doesnt need to be quieter. It is what it is, and the quietness comes from an area where the noise emitted is not an issue.

Nothing is going to last longer because its quieter.

And the kicker is that 2 stroke is not designed to go into your combustion chamber. Its a lubricant, the chamber doesnt need lubricating. Using my prado as an example, if I were to use 2stroke as suggested I would be putting 142 litres of two stroke into it over 200,000ks. Thats 142 litres of oil being burnt in the combustion chamber that is not designed to be in there.

What possible result can that have other than carboning the pistons.

I think we will see in about 5 to 10 years time what the outcome is.

Wouldn't argue with most of your statements above, BUT, one does stand out as a little strange, "2 stroke is not designed to go into your combustion chamber". Where do you think it goes when mixed with the fuel ?? , whether it be premixed in the fuel or injected into the inlet manifolds, or is there something new on the market that separates it from fuel prior to reaching the combustion chamber ?

After reading your posts, I will very likely stop using the 2 stroke oil (AIR COOLED) in my fuel, as you make a lot of sence, and will just have to put up with the injector rattles. bugger, it is a Toyota. :lol:

[tassie tiger Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close tassie tiger]

Re: 2 Stroke oil as an additive to Diesel fuel

HI John

What I was meaning is that the 'oil' is not designed to go in the combustion chamber of a 4stroke. In a 2 stroke it does of course but much of it coats the mechanicals (bearings/rods/crank) as well as it does it.

Two stroke engines have shorter rebuild periods and suffer from carbonising, particularly if lugged. One reason to rev your victa 2stroke.

The issue with the four stroke is that the oil in the fuel is burnt in the combustion chamber (cause it will end up there of course) where it does not belong.

cheers

[lawrance Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close lawrance]

Re: 2 Stroke oil as an additive to Diesel fuel

For those who are concerned that two stroke oil is not designed to go into a diesel engine but still wish to ensure that the injectors are kept lubricated despite the lowered lubricity of ultra low sulphur diesel, there is a product that is specifically designed for diesel engines.

Flashlube diesel conditioner

http://www.flashlube.com/en/products/di ... ioner.html

At a dosage of 100 ml of Flashlube for every 100 litres of diesel, this is definitely a lot cheaper than adding 500 ml of Castrol Activ 2T for every 100 litres of diesel

According to the product datasheet, "Flashlube Diesel Conditioner is designed to protect Diesel engines, particularly for those who want to switch over to Low Sulphur Diesel (LSD), or Ultra Low Sulphur Diesel (ULSD) fuel."

This product seems to be designed specifically for diesel engines, unlike two stroke oil, which is designed for petrol powered engines.

(No affiliation, only genuine interest in helping those out of warranty but wishing to keep their vehicles troublefree for a long long time)

[Skoeter Lurker Find all posts View Profile Close Skoeter]

Re: 2 Stroke oil as an additive to Diesel fuel :shock:

FWIW, I have been researching this topic a lot, especially after injector failures on my Hilux and then feeling the pain in the cost to get it replaced.

To put a couple of facts straight:
- The cetane number of diesel is increased by 3-5 numbers by adding a 200:1 ratio of 2SO
- It is common practice in Europe (especially Germany) to add 2SO to diesels. It burns cleaner than diesel and is effective to reduce soot emissions. Some claim even 50% reduction
- The world fuel charter is currently under debate ito lubricity specifications. In general experts recon that the spec is too low, which is very evident in the amount of failure that occur in high pressure CRD engines.

Personally, I have been running in two vehicles:
- 2007 Hilux 3.0 D4D: Definately quieter engine, which is very noticeable during startup and the initial pull away.
- 2010 Prado 3.0 D4D: Used 2SO since day one and did not have any issues with it. Fuel consumption is very acceptable, since the engine is still tight (3,000km) Interested parties can PM me and I can provide you with info.

Bottom line, yes, you incur additional cost for the oil and it does add to better lubricity of the diesel. At this moment I see it as insurance and enjoyment due to the engines being smooth and quiet.

Will I continue doing this? Definately.

For vehicles fitted with DPFs (Diesel particulate filters); reported feedback is that the clean burn cycle has been extended to about double the normal kms. Another indication that fuel is burnt more efficiently with less carbon.

Just search the web and you will get hoard of threads on this.

Look at the following link: http://www.freel2.com/forum/topic878.html

Cheers

[gee Lurker Find all posts View Profile Close gee]

Re: 2 Stroke oil as an additive to Diesel fuel

Though I might share my first hand experience with 2 stroke:
Earlier this year I read about adding two stroke oil to diesel. Decided to add it at the recommended ratio of 200:1 to the diesel in my 2000 1kzte prado with 194000 ks on the clock with a full service history and no prior problems. It did appear to run quieter, fuel economy didn't seem to change. Continued to use it for every fuel tank for about 2-3 months. Prado then developed a starting problem which got progressively worse until I couldn't start the vehicle. When I could get it started it would almost stall whenever taking off from a standing start. Replaced the fuel filter, changed the glow plugs, dumped the fuel and cleaned the tanks, no improvement. Took it to a diesel specialist. After over a week of checks the problems were found to be the result of an internal section of the injector pump being starved of fuel due to some sort of blockage. Diesel specialist mentioned that this was the first time he had ever seen this type of problem occur. Result= $3500 worth of brand new injector pump and labour later, the prado is back to it's old self. Did the two stroke cause the problem? Not sure. Did it contribute to an early death of an already well used injector pump? Possibly. Will I add two stroke again? Never.

[Skoeter Lurker Find all posts View Profile Close Skoeter]

Re: 2 Stroke oil as an additive to Diesel fuel

Gee, I think it is a very poor argument that the 2 stroke oil caused your pump failure. The vehicle already had some significant mileage on and it would be interesting to explain how the oil could have caused blockage in the pump. Given the fact that the primary role of the oil is to lubricate and that it completely mixes with diesel once added.

It is too bad you had the pump failure and is concluding it was the added oil. I will continue using it due to the added advantage that I have seen on my vehicles.

Good luck!
Cheers

[gee Lurker Find all posts View Profile Close gee]

Re: 2 Stroke oil as an additive to Diesel fuel

Gee, I think it is a very poor argument that the 2 stroke oil caused your pump failure. The vehicle already had some significant mileage on and it would be interesting to explain how the oil could have caused blockage in the pump. Given the fact that the primary role of the oil is to lubricate and that it completely mixes with diesel once added.

It is too bad you had the pump failure and is concluding it was the added oil. I will continue using it due to the added advantage that I have seen on my vehicles.

Good luck!
Cheers

Open your eyes and read my post again champ. :roll: I'm pretty sure I said I don't know if it cause the failure but it may have contributed. I just stated what happened to me. I'm just following logic. If you change the way you do something and things go wrong, you generally go back to what has worked in the past. For me, it's not adding 2 stroke.

[Derb Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Derb]

Re: 2 Stroke oil as an additive to Diesel fuel

Hi Fellas. 194,000 km is not a significant mileage to expect from a diesel injector system. I have owned 7 Toyota diesel vehicles and would be pissed off if the diesel system didn't do around 500,000 km with careful and regular servicing. I would expect we as a motoring public are being conned into expecting less of our diesel engines as a result of their recent development (common rail/electronic management etc) where we should be demanding better service from these components as a result of better machining, materials, design, fuel etc. If you have to start placing additives and performance enhancing drugs into the tank, you may as well buy a damn petrol engined prado.(god forbid) Well there's my rave. Cheers, Derb.

[jjgsxr1000 Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close jjgsxr1000]

Re: 2 Stroke oil as an additive to Diesel fuel

Can some of you diesel guru's explain how adding a slight amount of oil to the Diesel fuel (which is an oil basically) can damage the engine ?


:? :?

Here is how it can damage an engine;

What the issue is, well for this diesel mechanic anyway, is that you are running oil through a system that is not designed to have oil run through it.

Diesel injectors and pumps dont need to be lubricated because diesel is a lubricant in itself. As in my earlier post, they are machined to exacting standards. Those standards do not include adding oil into the mix.

And for those suggesting that a ratio of 200:1 is not much it is worth remembering that two stroke engines (brushcutters/chainsaws) run 50:1 as the ONLY lubrication for the engine.

Think about that for a minute - a two stroke engines lubrication comes from 1 part oil to 50 parts fuel and the bearings are lubricated with that mix swirling through the crankcase and leaving a film of oil on the pistons. When you pull down a two stroke engine what do you get. Carbon deposits on the piston that you dont get with a four stroke engine. Why? - Because the oil that does the lubricating also coats surfaces that dont need to be lubricated. Piston crowns and the combustion chamber does not need lubricating. The oil 'burns' on top of the piston and creates carbon.

If 50:1 can prevent a two stroke from seizing then what is happening to the 200:1 oil mix that is running through the fuel injection system where it is not designed to be. What is it coating?

I have never rebuilt a diesel that has been run with two stroke oil in the fuel. But I will hazard a guess here and say that if a two stroke engine running a higher octane fuel ends up with carbon on the pistons then the same would probably occur with a diesel that has had two stroke oil run through it.

What causes damage to diesel engine combustion chambers? - Pre-ignition of the diesel flame path due to carbon deposits caused by excess oil consumption or incorrect injector patterns (which is why you need to service the injectors at the correct service intervals to ensure the pattern is correct). If you end up with large carbon deposits on a piston it does two things.
1. Changes the balance of the piston
2. Creates an incredible hot spot on the piston that causes the piston to hole and the engine is destroyed.

The concerns over the loss of lubrication from reduced sulphur diesel is addressed through the adding of lubricants at the refinery;

From shell - Will my diesel engine require additional lubrication as a result of using a low sulphur fuel?

Sulphur content is linked to the lubricating properties of the fuel and some low sulphur fuels may require additives to provide lubrication to fuel pumps and injection systems.

Shell addresses this at the refining stage so you do not need to introduce additives into the fuel. Shell Diesel 10 will continue to be tested to ensure that they provide adequate lubrication.

One of the benefits of low sulphur diesel is longer injector life as they dont carbon up like old diesel fuel did. What do you think running two stroke through them will do?

Yep it may make them quieter - but they dont need to be quiet, they just need to do the job they are designed to do.

There appears to be a problem with D4D injectors - if this is making them quieter that is not a good thing, it is masking a design fault.

The only time I would consider adding two stroke (other than my experiment) and when I see the ad from Toyota;

THE NEW PRADO - NOW WITH TWO STROKE AUTO INJECTION!

Wow....What a read this all was. I'm a Petrol Mechanic & can say 100% that petrols do indeed Carbon up Pistons.
I did my Apprenticeship for Mazda & can remember the 1st 121 Bubble i heard come in with what sounded like a massive Big End knock. The Little 1.3 & 1.5 Bubble engines run the pistons so close to the 4 valve head, that when you get a carbon build up on the pistons, the carbon build up on the piston actually contacts the head. This creates said knocking noise.
The fix??
Get a few revs on board & add some carefully measured water slowly down the throttlebody soon had the carbon cleaned off& they are good as gold again.

Have rebuilt a few engines over the years & have found carbon deposits on Pistons to be a common occurence & certainly not only confined to the realm of 2 strokes.

After all this debate i guess my idea of an injected Nitro Methane mix through a Flux Capacitor is out?? :twisted:

[jjgsxr1000 Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close jjgsxr1000]

Re: 2 Stroke oil as an additive to Diesel fuel

Wrong again :roll:

I have a letter from Toyota Australia stating that they support 5% biodiesel in their diesel engines. I will consider Toyota Australia to be authoritative on that point.

So we have different information as my advice also came from TMCA. No fuel additives or biodiesel for the D4D. It's quite clear, they even give you a pamphlet explaining this when you buy a new vehicle :roll: Do you even own a D4D?

I own a Vacuum Cleaner but i don't think that makes me an authoritive figure on Vacuum Cleaners.

Does owning a D4D make one a more authoritive figure on them?
I think not.

I apologise in advance, as i don't own one either, but am a mechanic with Diesel & Petrol experience, and i kinda object to the idea of "owning one makes someone know better"

I can see what Lawrance was trying to achieve with this debate & have read it & other debates on this subject with keen interest.
I just don't believe he needed to be belittled for his opinion, as he did not belittle others for theirs.

-As for 2 Stroke oil, i'm still out on the debate, however i am concerned about what the lubrication reductions in the new Low Sulphur fuels will do to our older style pump setups that weren't designed for these lower lubricant style of fuels like the later Common Rail setups.
Maybe Tassie Tiger can answer this one better than i, due to his more in depth Diesel experience?

Regards, Jay.

[ff1-69 Lurker Find all posts View Profile Close ff1-69]

Re: 2 Stroke oil as an additive to Diesel fuel

Strangely enough not a lot of 2stoke oil reaches the combustion chamber of an outboard/2stroke engine. The reason is that as the fuel enters the crankcase in it's cycle before being purged into the combustion chamber, the fuel has vapourised (but the oil does'nt) and dropped all or most of its oil content into the crankcase where it is designed to be. Exess oil is purged out of the case by a purge valve into the exhaust port/cavity.

Yeah i was just stirring the porridge.

I think this is one of the great things about prados. Either engine, by comparison with other vehicles, are great. I love filling the prado up once a month and being able to drive from melbourne to the Mid North Coast of NSW in one go .

Luckily I have been monitoring my fuel consumption since getting the prado (bog stock), mainly to track what differences occur as its modified. I have already seen a .5l increase on going up one size of tyre alone.

This is one of those threads that will go around in circles. Its a real "yeah but" argument. My experiment shows it for what it is, internet garbage. If its going to work it will work when you try it. I tried it over 165 litres in the exact conditions that it is used for - family taxi every day - and there was no difference. Engines dont need time to develop or get used to fuel, they just do what physics demands of them.

If you lower the octane (2stroke will lower it) then efficiency is lowered. You cant get increased economy through lower efficiency.

So the economy is a dead argument.

So the "yeah but" is its quieter. Okay, maybe it is, but its irrelevant. The motor is designed to do what it does and doesnt need to be quieter. It is what it is, and the quietness comes from an area where the noise emitted is not an issue.

Nothing is going to last longer because its quieter.

And the kicker is that 2 stroke is not designed to go into your combustion chamber. Its a lubricant, the chamber doesnt need lubricating. Using my prado as an example, if I were to use 2stroke as suggested I would be putting 142 litres of two stroke into it over 200,000ks. Thats 142 litres of oil being burnt in the combustion chamber that is not designed to be in there.

What possible result can that have other than carboning the pistons.

I think we will see in about 5 to 10 years time what the outcome is.

Wouldn't argue with most of your statements above, BUT, one does stand out as a little strange, "2 stroke is not designed to go into your combustion chamber". Where do you think it goes when mixed with the fuel ?? , whether it be premixed in the fuel or injected into the inlet manifolds, or is there something new on the market that separates it from fuel prior to reaching the combustion chamber ?

After reading your posts, I will very likely stop using the 2 stroke oil (AIR COOLED) in my fuel, as you make a lot of sence, and will just have to put up with the injector rattles. bugger, it is a Toyota. :lol:

[Type[R]+ Lurker Find all posts View Profile Close Type[R]+]

Re: 2 Stroke oil as an additive to Diesel fuel

Wrong again :roll:

I have a letter from Toyota Australia stating that they support 5% biodiesel in their diesel engines. I will consider Toyota Australia to be authoritative on that point.

So we have different information as my advice also came from TMCA. No fuel additives or biodiesel for the D4D. It's quite clear, they even give you a pamphlet explaining this when you buy a new vehicle :roll: Do you even own a D4D?

Actually Toyota have D4D fuel injector cleaner additive..... Every time I complain about knock and injector noise, they put it in my tank.

[waz2011 Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close waz2011]

Hi all
Very interesting topic, I know it's a while since anyone posted anything here, I can remember years past when people used to pull up in Servo's and put their "Upper Cylinder Lubricant" into the Petrol tank when filling up the family hack, but I guess we have come a long way since those days, (probably gives an idea that I am an older person), but I have been suprised by an article I read in yesterdays Brisbane Courier Mail, Cars Guide, about 8WD Mercedes Benz Actros AK truck, supplied to the Aust Defence Force, where it seems to shoot this theory down about the need for any additional lubrication in the diesel.
Quote [Its Euro5-compliant 381kW turbo diesel V8 can run on kerosene (a battlefield expedient to use the same fuel for aircraft and land vehicles)].

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/eig...-1226099791816

Read the article and see what you think, I hardly think a battlefield vehicle would want to experience any sort of problem with its fuel system, and especially the fact it can run on Aviation grade KEROSENE, which I can remember was always said to be lacking in any sort of "built-in" lubrication, can successfully be used here. So if MB can successfully do it why can't Toyota, and any other manufacturer for that matter. I have always used Kero as a "Cutting agent" when honing cylinder liners etc, I know when you use Diesel to wash parts it always leaves an oily film on everything, and Kero always dries off with no residue.

Cheers Waz