OME or Kings and Billies

[Hally Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Hally]

Im looking at putting kings and billies in next couple of weeks does anyone have any experience on the progressive rate coil

[Whitey Shockie Maker of the Month Award Find all posts View Profile Close Whitey]

Yeah OME are just way too overpriced. From gathering info, apparently OME are rebranded King springs and Monroe shocks. I was looking at the ktfr-101ht coil which is a longer progressive rate spring. I can't find lengths or spring rates, but if it's anything like the ktpr-102 then it should be more than long enough and with a progressive rate, should be just right for my stock sovereign front end.

Hey Vaelen,

There aren't many who run progressive coils in the front, mainly from the perspective that the weight doesn't change, so progressive coils aren't considered as necessary.

What ride height are you trying to achieve on the front and rear?

Best

Mark

[Whitey Shockie Maker of the Month Award Find all posts View Profile Close Whitey]

Im looking at putting kings and billies in next couple of weeks does anyone have any experience on the progressive rate coil

Hey Hally,

Progressive for front, rear or both?

Progressive coils are one of those areas where you'll again get mixed opinions, claims of ride quality improving/decreasing, front/rear ifs versus solid axle etc.

I would say for the rear solid axle geometry, it depends if you want a touring/heavily loaded setup or a flexing setup that will determine your choice of coil between progressive or linear.

For flexing on the solid axle rear, you will be at the limit of engineering a linear coil at around 3" lift with free height around 430mm and 300lb/in. Past 430mm free height on a linear coil and you start decreasing the spring rate and the subsequent lift. This kind of linear geometry limits you to around 2.5-3" of lift and a shock open length around 640mm, see here;

http://www.pradopoint.com/showthread...ado-120-series

As such, most heavy loaded touring/airbag rear configurations have a shock length less than 640mm on linear coils, typically an 80 series shock at around 620mm. If you keep the swaybar in, you'll need 30mm longer links to push the swaybar bind out to 645mm.

If you want to achieve more articulation/lift, then you'll need some progressive coils, which are up to 500mm free height, and allow you to flex out to 700mm open length or more. You'll also need extended brake lines to do this, and you'll have to remove the rear swaybar. Some opinions regard dual rate coils in the rear as giving a poorer ride quality for every day driving, eg. handling around corners as the coil compresses between the two different rates, changing the feel of the car.

For the front ifs with progressive coils, some will say they aren't strictly necessary as the front weight doesn't change. Some opinions say that coilovers give better ride quality with progressive coils, some hate it. Geometry wise there's no distinct advantage to having progressive coils on the IFS, as the working to free travel coil limit is 350mm on the IFS, and all linear and progressive coils are typically well above this height, with the exception of a single Lovells coil.

As such, for the front it's down to how it "feels" whether you would choose a linear or progressive coil.

One thing to keep in mind also is that to minimise vehicle pitch from front to rear (typically occurring at its worst at low speed in a heavily loaded vehicle, even with airbags pumped up), you need front:rear coil spring rates in the ratio 586/280 to get the front:rear frequency ratio better than 1:1.

In the end, what lift and articulation are you trying to achieve?

Best

Mark

[Hally Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Hally]

[/QUOTE ]

In the end, what lift and articulation are you trying to achieve?

Best

Mark[/QUOTE]

Thanks for your reply i should have give a bit more.
Car is mainly for tourning but do like to do a bit of 4wding notihng to crazy its a 150 and do have a CT we tow, will more than likely put airbags in as well to level height so as can run a softer spring for comfort and will be only a 2in as don't want the c/v problems. Articulation wise would like as much as possible but without creating more problems or needed mods.
Thanks

[Whitey Shockie Maker of the Month Award Find all posts View Profile Close Whitey]

In the end, what lift and articulation are you trying to achieve?

Best

Mark

Thanks for your reply i should have give a bit more.
Car is mainly for tourning but do like to do a bit of 4wding notihng to crazy its a 150 and do have a CT we tow, will more than likely put airbags in as well to level height so as can run a softer spring for comfort and will be only a 2in as don't want the c/v problems. Articulation wise would like as much as possible but without creating more problems or needed mods.
Thanks

Hey,

The most typical King coil combo KTFR-101/KTRR-102 will give you 1-1.5" front lift (bar dependent) and around 1.5" rear.

The rear KTRR-102 coil at 390mm free height limits you to a rear shock around 600-610mm open length, but this would be good for the Quadrant Bilsteins which I think are 610mm open. At 610mm open length, you don't need to lengthen your swaybar links either.

I also think the front Quadrant Bilstein struts have open length 570mm, so would be pretty nice articulation with maximum droop for that lift on the Kings. No need for after market uca's at 1.5" on the IFS, and you are still a healthy margin away from CV bind on the 150 which is somewhere up around 585mm.

Just coils and struts/shocks for that kind of lift. No extra mods needed. If you do get the full 1.5" on the front, and if the CV angle looks too much at ride height, you may want to consider a diff drop, but that is a simple and cheap mod you can easily do at home.

I'd contact John at Zordos or call Quadrant to double check the Quadrant Bilstein open lengths.

Best

Mark

[Hally Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Hally]

Thanks heaps Mark
Should have also said have arb bar and will put in whinch before suspension lift

[Guest Close Guest]

The most typical King coil combo KTFR-101/KTRR-102 will give you 1-1.5" front lift (bar dependent) and around 1.5" rear.

With the amount of lift you mention, is that with the coils installed on a 120 or 150?

[Whitey Shockie Maker of the Month Award Find all posts View Profile Close Whitey]

With the amount of lift you mention, is that with the coils installed on a 120 or 150?

Hey amts,

I was referring to a 120 lift. Good catch! This is a 120 thread, and Hally has a 150!

The 150 lift would be shorter from the extra weight of the 150.

Hally has also mentioned an ARB bar with a winch, so that will be right at the bottom end of the lift, less than 1".

I have a friend with a 120, he runs a sovereign bar with secondary battery up front, and he has 0.8" on the front with KTFR-101.

Best

Mark

[Guest Close Guest]

Yes I've been advised that the KTFR-101HD is the starting coil for a 2" lift on a 150.

[Vaelen Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Vaelen]

Hi Guys,

So spoke to Kings this morning and the sales guy i spoke to - at length - told me that with a sovereign bar and spotties only, the best option is the KTFR-101 on the front and KTPR-102 at the back. He said linear up front and not HD because the valving on Bilsteins is better suited to a linear spring and because I don't have the weight up front to justify HD and that when loaded, the front of the car will be much higher with HD springs.
He said the KTPR-102 at the back - which I mentioned to him before he said it - was the best option for an occasionally loaded daily drive and would give a good ride unladen as well as loaded up with gear.

I measured her this evening and got (bottom of rim to the top curve of the arch, straight across the hub) and got 780mm front and 780 at the back too with towbar and 45l diesel in. Are these about right??

He said that the King springs are designed to give a 30mm lift from standard height but that I may get a a bit more unladen from the KTPR-102 at the back because of the extended spring length.
When I asked him what if I am unhappy with the ride on or off road, he simply said as long as it has been under a month since purchase, I should go to the supplier and ask for replacements. This was a good shock to me!

I think I am going to go with what he said. I am looking for a 50mm lift but I am not willing to sacrifice too much ride quality for it. And with the Bilsteins at least I can change circlip positions if needs be. Might look at getting airbags done at the same time.

What are your guys thoughts and opinions before I take this plunge?

[Guest Close Guest]

780mm at the front sounds like there is a 40mm lift already. Are you sure about that?

[Vaelen Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Vaelen]

780mm at the front sounds like there is a 40mm lift already. Are you sure about that?

I have probably done it wrong but how I explained, that's how I measured it. I have stood next to lifted prado's and mine was definitely lower front and back.
I'll put up a photo or 2 tomorrow so you guys can get better info.
But what do you think about Mr Kings sales dudes recommendations?

[Whitey Shockie Maker of the Month Award Find all posts View Profile Close Whitey]

I have probably done it wrong but how I explained, that's how I measured it. I have stood next to lifted prado's and mine was definitely lower front and back.
I'll put up a photo or 2 tomorrow so you guys can get better info.
But what do you think about Mr Kings sales dudes recommendations?

Hey,

Check the edited photo in this thread for how to measure;

http://www.pradopoint.com/showthread...Measurements-2

Maybe you just wrote a typo!?

Regarding the KTFR-101/KTPR-102 combo, the lift prolly won't be 50mm (which you said you were looking for in post #25) once everything has settled in, more like 25-30mm front, 35-40mm rear.

Best

Mark

[Vaelen Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Vaelen]

Hey,

Check the edited photo in this thread for how to measure;

http://www.pradopoint.com/showthread...Measurements-2

Maybe you just wrote a typo!?

Regarding the KTFR-101/KTPR-102 combo, the lift prolly won't be 50mm (which you said you were looking for in post #25) once everything has settled in, more like 25-30mm front, 35-40mm rear.

Best

Mark

Hi Mark,
Thanks for the pic. I first measured her that way and thought I was wrong then #derp lol. In that case she is 730 all round.
As for the lift not being 50mm, once everything has settled in, if the ride is great, I can then put spacers in and if at a point I have the weight to justify hd springs, I can then upgrade the whole lot. Right?
Springs are in general the cheaper parts yeah?
I just don't know if I am willing to sacrifice a great ride for 2cm.
Regards,
Andrew

[Whitey Shockie Maker of the Month Award Find all posts View Profile Close Whitey]

Hi Mark,
Thanks for the pic. I first measured her that way and thought I was wrong then #derp lol. In that case she is 730 all round.
As for the lift not being 50mm, once everything has settled in, if the ride is great, I can then put spacers in and if at a point I have the weight to justify hd springs, I can then upgrade the whole lot. Right?
Springs are in general the cheaper parts yeah?
I just don't know if I am willing to sacrifice a great ride for 2cm.
Regards,
Andrew

Hey,

I wouldn't bother with spacers, you sacrifice droop for lift unnecessarily, and the potential for mechanical damage is higher.

It's simpler to just purchase the correct length spring.

The King HD coils are too high a spring rate for the 120 at 800lb/in. You can never get a high enough spring rate in the rear to keep the front:rear suspension frequency ratio near 1:1. As such, you will always suffer vehicle pitch with 800lb/in coils in the front, typically under low speed 4wd conditions with a loaded vehicle, where bumps/depressions etc. are spaced vehicle wheelbase apart...like in between dunes etc.

For the 120, it's much better to keep the front spring rate around 600lb/in, and to use taller coils to combat extra weight.

Regarding ride quality, once you lift the Prado it won't feel the same. Some say it's better, others worse. For the 120, I think the optimal lift is around 1.5-2" front and 2.5-3" rear. Running 570mm front struts and 80 series rear shocks gives you the maximum amount of droop at this lift. Any higher and you loose droop. Some will put in after market upper control arms which can also improve the driving feel.

Coil springs can get pricey depending on where you purchase them. I think $150-$200/pair, if you shop around you can find a bargain!

Best

Mark