The 150 series Dual Battery Guide

[Fred63 Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close Fred63]

Leigh some good comments regarding what you can expect a fridge to use and the effect on the batteries.
I have a 38L fridge running as a freezer camped in summer (30 = 35deg +) it uses around 38amp/hr.
I run a permanent 120W solar panel and a 130W portable panel., I have found by 11:30 in the morning when camping in summer the batteries are back on float charge. running 2 X100ah in the van.
Momo,
go solar to keep the batteries charged in the camper, Portable panels are relatively cheap.
for coffee when camping try one of these.
http://www.kulkyne.com/au/Compact-Es...FVgRvQoda7YAGw
makes a good cuppa.

[MelbournePark Member Find all posts View Profile Close MelbournePark]

The Kimberly Karavan is well known for having chassis cracking issues a shocker failures which would appear to be directly attributed to the units weight. In my opinion one of the driving reasons Kimberly would have chosen to use Lithium batteries would have been the weight reduction the offer. Also fitting temperature tell tales to the shockers and then saying if they overheat it the owners responsibility is a bit of a cope out in my opinion from a company that advertises our units can go anywhere your car can, clearly from the number of failures occurring this is not the case, mind you there may be a few other companies pondering rewording their advertising after some recent court cases...

All the reports I've had about them - besides the early swinging arms which were re-designed - are that Kimberley are happy to repair things, that they've been constantly developing them, and that while the factory at Ballina are very willing, the outlets which are separate organizations often are more resistant.

Shocker failures happen in all vehicles, and used to be a huge issue in racing. A Kimberly Kamper from the 2007 could easily weigh 2.4 tonnes. And they have just two wheels - 1.2 tonne per wheel. That's a lot more load than a Prado's wheel. And same for the shockers. I think now Kimberly have an air suspension and mono shocks that stay cool, and the air makes it easier to change the tyre pressures. Expensive stuff and yes those all now have thin film solar arrays that save 50kg and Lithiums that save hundreds of kgs. Nothing wrong with saving weight in a trailer though. Its just common sense.

It would be nice if Prados had a guide to when you are pushing them too hard to avoid guard failure, eh? Still I think that Kimberly Fox shocker temperature feature (Kimberley don't make shockers either) is now gone.

The irony is that for a lead acid battery, light weight means the battery isn't as good since it means there's less lead and thinner plates, which hurts longevity. We all want to save weight in both towing and in the Prado. I do anyway.

As for the Lithium - I never mean't to say all Lithiums. I have lots of Lithiums at home - you can buy them in packets at Coles, but their output isn't high. Just most decent 12V higher AH units. As far as the brand you mentioned - well, check the brand and its characteristics. Limiting output is likely a subset of what their market is. Many have phenominal outputs though. Its a subset of efficiency and Lithiums are much more efficient than lead acid.

All the techs have differences - in camera flashes, NiMh have greater output capacity. Those batteries have big memory issues, and are a pain, but good flashes use them (Pro ones worth lots) because they recover the flash capability quicker than anything else. Nothing worse than waiting for your flash to recover while you miss all the action.

[MelbournePark Member Find all posts View Profile Close MelbournePark]

...
Momo,
go solar to keep the batteries charged in the camper, Portable panels are relatively cheap.
for coffee when camping try one of these.
http://www.kulkyne.com/au/Compact-Es...FVgRvQoda7YAGw
makes a good cuppa.

How big is it?

Drifta have this expensive coffee maker but its big and looks like it would handle an open fire on the coals without issues. $119 though but the handles would work ( I have one of their fireplaces and its great ):
http://www.drifta.com.au/snow-peak-coffee-percolator/

The problem is that all those push up the water and let it filter down units (perhaps like the Kulkyne supplied one and certainly the Drifta supplied one) don't maker coffee anywhere near as good as a Bialetti does, which uses a different method and uses pressure. Hence the pressure hole. I love the coffee those things make and really those things make better coffee than fancy bean grinding high pressure big home machines. However I've never seen a Bialetti with anything but a plastic handle. They'd be great in a fire IMO but for the darn plastic handles.

http://www.kitchenwaredirect.com.au/...PhEaAkVT8P8HAQ

Anyone who knows of one without plastic handles please let me know, I'd buy one straight away!

[LeighW Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close LeighW]

I haven't had any issues with my Prado carrying a Marine Pro on the guard, my friends Prado
around 130000Km's now has had both Marine Pros and Optimas. Manufacturers now are pushing weight strength issues to improve fuel consumption figures, obviously in the Prado they have pushed a bit far under under some circumstances and will go back the other way a tad.

The weight saving gains of lithium's would be good, double or triple capacity and keep weight the same, they just need to be user friendly and prove themselves.

I have worked in electronics all my life, on staff, doing contract work, consulting and running my own business. I have worked for many multi national companies all with extensive technical plant and all requiring no break back up power systems and up until the time I retired around two years ago none, repeat none used any lithium batteries, they used thousands of lead acid but that was it.

Cost was not an issue, if you could replace the lead acid with a light weight battery, and reduce floor loadings building costs would come down, maintenance costs would also come down etc. Some tried Nicads which where to be the end all be all but had to pull them out when they didn't perform as promised.

I don't believe there is a conspiracy in the battery industry to keep them out, they have also seen other battery types come and go that were going to make everything else obsolete and it didn't happen due to their shortfalls. Their not going to going to start down a road a possible loose many, many millions of dollars until a technology has proven itself.

Simple fact is other battery technologies to date just haven't performed as per the manufacturers glossies, current generation lithiums maybe be different but the first generation self destructing and causing fires hasn't been all that successful requiring a second generation.

I haven't had any thing to do with vehicle lithium's, Drivesafe has, he runs a successful company manufacturing and installing dual battery systems, as he wrote he has also done several lithium installations and so far not impressed with the setups.

From my perspective I have had a lot of exposure to lithium batteries in domestic equipment, so far I haven't seen any great change in battery life compared to Nicads, NMHI etc, in fact my ASUS laptop with a lithium battery is showing signs of reduced capacity and it is less than 12 months old, that's the worst life of a laptop battery I have had to date. The battery may be smaller and pack a higher density but so far it's life span does not appear impressive!

From a repair point of view they have caused more issues than they have solved, consumers aren't aware of their charging requirements, they use a device a couple of times then put it away, they pull it out to use a year or two later go to charge it and the battery won't charge as it has gotten to low, try telling a customer the benefits of lithium batteries when they have to replace the battery after a couple of uses!

I see this as a severe limitation, there will always be users who will over discharge their batteries either deliberately or accidentally, unless low voltage cutouts are installed the battery could be damaged. Even with low voltage cutouts if the user doesn't recharge the battery the cell balancing units and battery management will probably continue to draw current and so continue to discharge the battery, how long do you have before it gets to a critical situation?

They may prove themselves over the next few years, and if prices come down, then the weight reduction would certainly make then attractive but then you also have to take into account the charger costs if required, no good having huge battery capacity if you can't charge it directly off the alternator, as your then going to need a large capacity charger and that isn't going to be a cheap shout?

There's also discussions going on about raising basic vehicle voltages to say 42V to provide more efficient operation of power steering, brakes etc, another headache for the future, there goes all your 12V equipment!

[Momo Lurker Find all posts View Profile Close Momo]

Thanks LeighW. I'm looking at 80l fridge freezer running mainly as a low temp fridge. I'll narrow it down and then post the specs of the one I'm looking at. Sounds like I need to consider the current draw as well as the usual other factors. Thx for the tip. As for coffee machine, not a necessity as we use a stainless percolator but mrs wants to bring a small nespresso. I'll check the specs on that too.

[Momo Lurker Find all posts View Profile Close Momo]

[QUOTE=MelbournePark;489777]How big is it?

Drifta have this expensive coffee maker but its big and looks like it would handle an open fire on the coals without issues. $119 though but the handles would work ( I have one of their fireplaces and its great ):
http://www.drifta.com.au/snow-peak-coffee-percolator/

Nespresso. We use a stainless bialetti or similar brand meant for cooktop. Works on camp oven/coals as long as it's not too hot, you will drink rubber seal if it is lol

[foxpro Member Find all posts View Profile Close foxpro]

Wow, after reading many pages of this informative thread on what I thought to be a straight forward task I still have some questions.

I'm after the simplest DBS solution possible. No bells. No whistles. No dash display. No switches. Just two outlets in the back. One to power a 40L fridge. One for compressor/general usage.

I have so far ordered:
- ebay battery tray
- Sidewinder Battery Isolator Kit & Cable Set
- Sidewinder Rear Power Outlet cable
- BAINTECH DC Distribution Panel BTCP004R - Volt, USB, CIGA, CIGA 20A Circuit Protect
- Marine Pro battery NS70M (MP620) probaly

My questions:

- Should the starter battery run flat, can simple existing starter cables be used to link the two batteries and hopefully start the engine? Or would that upset the isolator? I would prefer this instead of wiring the link switch. Every part that is not installed can not fail or malfunction.

- Contemplating switching Aux/main battery to allow for a larger Aux in the factory position. Are there still issues in regards of too much weight and possible inner guard cracks in 2014 models?

[mjrandom Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close mjrandom]

First question - yes, no problems
Second question - tricky...

It's tricky because not everyone with a dual battery has cracked guards on the pre update and so far nothing reported on the update changed guards. Also some with cracked guards have had the problem on one side, others the other side and some both sides. However swapping the batteries will involve a lot of wiring that is probably not worth the trouble. Marine Pro is a good choice for that location so just run with it.

[LeighW Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close LeighW]

Yes, if the start battery goes flat you could just use a set of jumper cables
to jump start of the aux assuming it has charge in it.

[foxpro Member Find all posts View Profile Close foxpro]

Alright. Will stick with small and light aux in normal position and not wire the link switch. Jumper cables are always in the car anyway, so no issues. Thanks for replying.

[MelbournePark Member Find all posts View Profile Close MelbournePark]

...
I don't believe there is a conspiracy in the battery industry to keep them out, they have also seen other battery types come and go that were going to make everything else obsolete and it didn't happen due to their shortfalls. Their not going to going to start down a road a possible loose many, many millions of dollars until a technology has proven itself.

Simple fact is other battery technologies to date just haven't performed as per the manufacturers glossies, current generation lithiums maybe be different but the first generation self destructing and causing fires hasn't been all that successful requiring a second generation.

My view is that current Lithium Fe batteries are not a second generation because they are a significantly different compound with less efficiency and are non volatile. IMO a different thing altogether.

They are now universal in motor racing, even in the now hybrid F1 cars, where spectacular disintegration of vehicles is expected but the Lithium batteries have survived without issues.

As far as generational changes, they are happening in Lithium Fe batteries, in the control interface issues. There'll be a race for the best version, lots of different brand choices, and improvements into further generational products. I'd say the internal electronics and cellular designs are justified to be termed second generation from my strategic perspective, but an expert in batteries might call me out on that.

We've all discussed which battery to put in our Prados, and outside of the expensive Lithium, the choice is between a "Flooded" marine style/rugged flooded cycling type, or an AGM.

The point about all those, is its all old technology. The innovations in lead acid have been incremental, and based on less owner intervention and less leakages, easier shipment and longer shelf life. All mostly cost saving, logistic improvements rather than technological improvements. Glass does decrease charge times too. It's a very mature industry, and the dominant cost of a lead acid battery is the amount of lead in it, its distribution model and its marketing. I don't believe AGM costs much more to manufacture either - its just that AGM batteries are aimed at higher quality markets and hence they have more lead in them which increases their cost. By the way, my base is mostly manufacturing, also strategy and banking & finance.

Battery companies go broke all the time, and production is moving to low cost countries. So many are now made in China and Asia. LifeLine - a USA company, is family owned, and still operates in the USA. But such businesses can't be easy, and LifeLine is just a small niche quality player. There's little value added left in the lead acid battery business. Johnson spends a fortune on marketing them.

Johnson have bought lots of battery companies in their conglomerate expansion, and have put Optima on a Cash Cow pedestal via advertising while lowering Optima production costs a bit by shifting their whole Optima plant from the USA to Mexico. Those with long lived Optimas have the made in USA sticker on them, a sticker that has now gone. Johnson's Varta is a huge brand in Europe, its not popular here, probably because Johnson's marketing department just made that brand recognition choice.

Meanwhile the USA battery operation might well be focusing on added value. Hence Johnson's forthcoming and announced Lithium batteries are not far away.

As others have posted here, you can buy two batteries just the same, with a different label on them, and totally different prices here. And even with the same label prices can vary hugely. Marketing and distribution plays a huge role in the battery business.

Price differences are not so easy to find with Optimas, because they are a heavily marketed differentiated product, and the secret to that model working is avoiding significant discounting. The good news with Optima is you cannot easily copy them due to their design, unlike Trojen's excellent quality batteries, which are often copied and put into counterfeit red/brown cases by companies in China.

In contrast, Lithium is new technology. It's off the bottom of its learning curve, but its growth is predicted, and its going to be huge. 12% per annum, and sourcing Lithium - which was once of no interest to all but some lubrication grease producers and the nuclear industry - is now a big thing.

Just sit back and watch it grow. If light weight matters, as Lithium matures it'll take over, if not in volume then certainly in profits! And a quote from 2012:

"Galves says that lithium-ion batteries for electric cars cost about $600 a kilowatt-hour, compared to $250 a kilowatt-hour for laptop batteries. “There’s no reason automotive batteries can’t get that low,” he says" http://www.technologyreview.com/news...makers/page/2/

A footnote: the Tesla car uses Panasonic Lithium Fe batteries, is high performance, and has a range of I think 270 miles, yet can be re-charged in 20 to 30 minutes!!

[LeighW Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close LeighW]

foxpro,

Just keep in mind it's no good using a small battery to reduce weight if it is not
going to have enough Ah to keep the fridge running, if your that worried about guard
cracking then maybe look at putting the battery in the rear of the vehicle instead?

[MelbournePark Member Find all posts View Profile Close MelbournePark]

Wow, after reading many pages of this informative thread on what I thought to be a straight forward task I still have some questions.

I'm after the simplest DBS solution possible. No bells. No whistles. No dash display. No switches. Just two outlets in the back. One to power a 40L fridge. One for compressor/general usage.

I have so far ordered:
- ebay battery tray
- Sidewinder Battery Isolator Kit & Cable Set
- Sidewinder Rear Power Outlet cable
- BAINTECH DC Distribution Panel BTCP004R - Volt, USB, CIGA, CIGA 20A Circuit Protect
- Marine Pro battery NS70M (MP620) probaly

My questions:

- Should the starter battery run flat, can simple existing starter cables be used to link the two batteries and hopefully start the engine? Or would that upset the isolator? I would prefer this instead of wiring the link switch. Every part that is not installed can not fail or malfunction.

- Contemplating switching Aux/main battery to allow for a larger Aux in the factory position. Are there still issues in regards of too much weight and possible inner guard cracks in 2014 models?

Issues in the 2014 seem totally gone.

Even my early 2013 had a different guard part number.

Note that many say you should connect the top of the battery metal retaining bar to the body work as well - to eliminate the top of the battery weight swinging on its base, hence making the battery base move upon the guard. Makes sense to me. On corrugations many say say check the tyre pressures to provide a smooth ride, and travel at a smooth speed. So people say ...and some say a rubber base for the battery is good for the battery.

On your kit and battery selection:

The starter battery won't run flat because the Sidewinder DBi-140 automatically isolates the starter battery when it gets down to 12.4 volts. The Sidewinder also allows 400 amp twin battery start, but that might not be likely because the main battery will be protected.

Your likely to order the Marine Pro 620 battery for the spare space. Its dimensions and characteristics are as follows:
Weight 18.11kg
Length (Across towards the air con pipe): 260
Width: 171
Height inc terminals: 202
Reserve Capacity: 155
AMP Hours: 75
Weight: 18.11kg
Current Cost: $175

Its length should have it right on the compressor tube. There are narrower choices, but this size has made many fit without any hassles. The weight is below Toyota's supplied batteries, which weigh about 22kg ( I say supplied because in Europe they supply two and I checked such battery weights and they were over 21kg but a bit under 22kg).

Main battery
Its silly not to replace your main battery IMO.

Firstly - the Sidewinder DBi-140 is designed to use the starter battery for auxiliarly power, and then stop the flow of power when it reaches 12.4v. However if its just a starting battery, that constant use will screw the starter battery, because its not designed for such cycling use.

The obvious choice is the Marine Pro 730, which costs $20 more.
Key differences are that it:
Weighs 6kg more than the 620 ie 33% more at 24.17 kg,
AMP Hours: 33% more at 100 AH
Is longer at 306mm, but it will fit in the main battery slot. Ensure that its top is also located to the body work.

Total battery cost would be $370, for lots of AH, and the isolator will keep the bigger 730 safe for starting.

Downside on the Marine Pro is slower re-charge than AGM.

But an AGM like the Optima D34 would cost $300, and weigh 19.6kg, and provide 55 AH.

While a twin Marine Pro (730 starter and 620 spare slot) you'd get 75AH for the 620. How much for the 730? Well, 12.2 volts is about 50% load on the 730. So the cut off is set at 12.4 volts, so that means perhaps 55% of the capacity of the 730 without much harming its life. That means 55AH extra. Ideally you would only run the 620 to 50% ie 12.2 volts, because it would last longer. ie use 37 of its AH. But treat as LeighW says, the spare as a consumable, and although it won't last as long, the good news is that the starter will last for quite a few years.

The other way is to incorporate a DC : DC charger which can also input solar cell power into the reserve battery. That gets more complicated, costly (much due to the solar) but for long stays is a good plan too - as others have often done here.

[LeighW Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close LeighW]

foxpro,

It is not practical to swap the batteries around, the sense point for the alternator voltage regulator
in the Prado is the main fuse box, if you extended the battery connection cables to the passenger
side you'll affect both the charge voltage and available starter current, both guards would have more
or less the same rating, overseas models most likely have the starter battery on the right side, some
of the display Grandes when they first come out had factory batteries fitted to both sides.

If you decide to go with an AGM and intending to charge of the alternator, make sure it can tolerate
high inrush currents and under bonnet temperatures.

[LeighW Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close LeighW]

MelbournePark,

When you say an AGM will charge faster what AGM are you actually referring to?

A lot of AGM"s have quite low maximum recharge rates, ones that can accept high
recharge rates state around 3 hours to fully charge.

I have done extensive testing with MarinePros and they will charge from around 50% SOC
to fully charged in around 120 minutes and have hard data to support it. If your referring to an Optima it is not a typical AGM deep cycle battery, it was specifically designed for rapid recharging off an alternator?

Can you supply some model numbers and link to data sheets?

What would be the advantage in a DCDC charger in the above install, it will slow recharge times considerably unless a 40A or higher unit is installed and then more or less match the alternator?

If you look at it from the solar side, none of the current crop of combo units have very efficient mppt controllers built in, granted if your on a tight budget and not worried about efficiency or redundancy they could be a good choice, but if you want maximum efficiency out of your panels a good quality mppt charger would be a better choice?