DPF and white smoke

[LeadWings]

Just had a very interesting response from my local service manager when I e-mailed him as above. Un-surprisingly Toyota are working this hard and hopefully have a fix coming out.

Details of how the system works are also very interesting - as suspected the ECU is not currently using the DPF differential pressure to calculate if a regen is required, but the update is planned to. Also interesting insights into what Toyota are seeing as the source of the problem.

"Interesting to see the data you’re referring is corresponding to our own reports we’ve got going and what we’ve been submitting to TMCA and TMC in Japan. What you’re seeing there is correct for the current programming of the vehicle and half the reason why they’re creating occasional issues. We’ve just had a big state meeting on DPFs and the global response from Toyota to the ongoing issues with them and they’ve relaxed a little and given us more specific information.

What was most interesting and informative relates to the calculation of the DPF obstruction status. The DPF capacity figure is largely and primarily based on an ECU calculated algorithm. It doesn’t seem to use the actual pressure differential sensor readings as much as the DPFs on the 1KDs in the Hiace vans and 1VDs in the 200 Series Landcruiser. This algorithm is based on a specific batch of testing vehicles when this engine was developed and utilised a test-bed DPF filter with 300,000km of simulated use. The long, slow burn is designed to maximise longevity of the DPF so it is still effective at that mileage. What they have been finding is that there are small differences to actual engine operation, creating differences of +/-10% to algorithm accuracy, depending on the individual characteristics of the vehicle. This leads to an incorrect calculation of particulate matter (PM) inside the DPF, which means that it cannot accurately regenerate the filter. There is an engine ECU recalibration being tested in five vehicles in the country as we speak and results are positive, both in terms of the white smoke issue and improvement in fuel economy. They are hoping to roll this ECM recalibration out across the range of 1GD engine vehicles by October-November. This calibration remaps the ECU logic to make it use the pressure differential sensors as a priority reading for DPF obstruction, rather than the algorithm based calculation. It also changes the nature of the DPF regeneration, remapping it to take half the time and increase temperatures for a more aggressive, faster-completing regeneration.

What you are seeing on your data recording is the crux of the problem. It was assumed at highway speeds, when the engine was being developed, that there would be a high enough fuel volume (temperature) and enough time to complete a DPF regeneration at highway speeds, but in reality, there is a large amount of ‘cooling’ airflow coming out from the engine (Approximately 450 degrees), that acts to cool the filter right as it is attempting to do a regeneration (At 550-650 degrees). What occurs in this scenario, is a binding of PM to the particles of diesel fuel injected into the DPF, which internally clogs the DPF. This leads to an extended period where the ECM is attempting a regeneration, but it cannot achieve the temperatures required due to the large volume of cool air rushing through the DPF. The first ECM recalibration addressed this fact, it reduced the amount of fuel being injected into the engine, injection timing was delayed, turbo boost pressure was reduced and DPF injection volume was lowered/removed, as a way of attempting to raise DPF temperature and prevent the clogging of the monoliths inside, due to the presence of unburned fuel. This was not successful in all cases, as it was more addressing a symptom, than the actual fault – a blanket algorithm that was not correct for all vehicles. The new calibration brings the DPF regeneration treatment into alignment with the operation of the 1VD and 1KD vehicles by using the pressure differential sensors to actually measure DPF obstruction. We have not had any issues with DPF regenerations and white smoke with Hiaces or 200 Series Landcruisers so far. It also looks likely that it will lift the vehicles into a Euro VI bracket for emissions, as well as improving fuel economy.

The short version of this is, yes, what you’re seeing is normal, for now. There is no risk to the DPF for being at sustained high temperatures (They are designed to withstand over 1000 degrees). The ECM is not constantly spraying fuel down the exhaust (Even with our more aggressive manual regenerations, it is a .1 second pulse injector operation once every 10-15 seconds) and will avoid this entirely if the conditions for a regeneration are not met. There will be a remapped ECM calibration to fix this issue out in the next few months which we are confident will address these issues. I don’t know if vehicle owners will be notified of this update when it comes out, but it will all be done under warranty conditions and should automatically be loaded onto each vehicle’s work order when booked in for servicing.

I hope this addresses your concerns."

[LeadWings]

I’ve just been away to Bunbury for the weekend (200 km south) and watched my DPF status on my app an noticed something interesting/odd/worrying. App shows DPF%, exhaust temp (out of engine) and temp into the DPF.

I left home with the DPF at around 70%. Car and camper trailer, cruising at 100 km/hr in 6th, 2000 RPM (manual gearbox). Between 70% and 100% DPF in temp roughly tracks exhaust out temp of around 450C as I’m cruising along.

So the DPF gets to 100%, and then I watch the temp into the DPF rise as it starts to do a burn. It rises to around 530C max, sits there which I thought was unusual as for other DPF burns it normally gets well above 600C. Then for the next 50 km the DPF in temp seems to cycle between high 400C’s and low 500C’s, and the DPF sits at 100%. So as CamJam says it is as if at speed there is too much cooling and it can’t reach the regen temperatures.

Once we reached Bunbury traffic and slowed a bit it got the temperatures up and did a regen.

So for 50km it was sending fuel down the exhaust for no gain. And at the detriment of fuel economy and who knows what damage to the downstream stuff running at that temperature for an extended period. This is particularly annoying for me as we often do drives to our farm (500 km away) and it looks like there may be situations it will try and regen the whole way, and just use a whole lot of fuel for no gain.

This may also explain why our fuel economy seems to be 2 L/100km higher than others are getting - we spend a lot of time highway driving. And were planning a year on the road next year around Australia.....

I would be very interested to know if the fuel economy figures quoted for the Prado include the DPF 5^th injector? VW all over again?

[Faulco]

CamJam and Rockhop I hear what you say. To me just doing a forced regen to fix the problem is a bit like steam cleaning the engine to fix an oil leak, there you go, good as new. But it has now been formally recorded that my DPF failed during the warranty period and I will expect that any future problems with the DPF will fixed under warranty regardless of when it occurs (and I have no doubt it will fail). My real concern is that it’s going to let me down in the middle of nowhere so if someone can recommend a good OBDII scanner preferably one with easy regen commands it’d be appreciated.
Cheers Faulco

[Rockhop]

Having had this done twice, here's my two cents worth. When you go in with white smoke - don't leave until you have them order a new DPF.

It won't 'come good'. If nothing else, it's been damaged already.

Be forthright when you demand it. It's a very, very, very well known issue that all dealers are aware of. If it helps, lie your ar$e off and tell them it's been happening for the last, I dunno - 5000km? Tell them it's not a one off. And you can ask to see photo's of the work done - this is helpful when you tell them to clean the 5th injector and you want photo's. Yes, I am aware there is apparently a bulletin out there now saying not to touch the 5th injector as it's apparently not the problem. However, argue that until they DO find the problem, you want it checked regardless.

I've never had to push so hard to get a fault rectified. Second time was fine - I think the look in my eyes told the service manager just to fold on that one. But it shouldn't need this. I also got tired of the first thing they rattle off being "you should take it for a long drive"... I did over 62K km's in my 2016 model in 18 months, and with only two kids that I know of, it wasn't full of school runs.

FWIW - speaking with the engineer from Toyota who eventually came to the party (after I parked the car in the service driveway for another issue and wouldn't move it until it was looked at), he pointed out that the air cooling around the DPF works a little too well at 100km/h and above, with it tucked up at the back of the engine bay. So he showed me in the owners manual where it states you should drive at (from memory) 65 - 80km/h for an extended drive, as it won't cool down as much and can get to it's heat. So that was another excuse used - as about 70% of my driving is in 70 - 80km/h speed area's.

As Rockhop alludes to - they market the car as a suburban vehicle that's very capable for the occasional extended touring/ weekend 4WD set, so there should be no reason the purchaser of said $65K+++ vehicle should have to take special precautions, unless they're outlined when you purchase the car. Such as my little special precaution, when I ended up driving around with a 5L bottle of oil in the boot for the last 15,000km I owned it. The last car I did that with was a 1978 Toyota Crown owned by dad (good car too!).

Hi Camjam,

forgive me for my forgetfulness, were you moving on from the prado due to this issue ?

I agree with everything you have said, you have to be firm, and I know it sounds like I’m harmping on but every one should be noting it with the ACCC they will eventually force them to rectify the issue if enough complaints are raised, let’s be honest if every one that has had a prado DPF issue called up tomorrow they would take it up immediately.

It is clear they have an issue and are well aware of it, like all business they are trying it on that’s std practice annoying and it is really going to hurt them, this is our 4th Toyota 4wd diesel, this does not get fixed it’s the last

I will be on the phone to them next week to have ours replaced, had the smoke clouds a month ago they did a forced regen and 2 weeks later more clouds even funnier it was straight after a 1hour drive averaging about 85km/h which it was in the process of a burn during that whole hour of non stop driving

how can a burn take more than an hour of non stop driving at 70-95km/h ?

I just hope they have a new design or I guess I’ll be back here in another year or so

[CamJam]

Having had this done twice, here's my two cents worth. When you go in with white smoke - don't leave until you have them order a new DPF.

It won't 'come good'. If nothing else, it's been damaged already.

Be forthright when you demand it. It's a very, very, very well known issue that all dealers are aware of. If it helps, lie your ar$e off and tell them it's been happening for the last, I dunno - 5000km? Tell them it's not a one off. And you can ask to see photo's of the work done - this is helpful when you tell them to clean the 5th injector and you want photo's. Yes, I am aware there is apparently a bulletin out there now saying not to touch the 5th injector as it's apparently not the problem. However, argue that until they DO find the problem, you want it checked regardless.

I've never had to push so hard to get a fault rectified. Second time was fine - I think the look in my eyes told the service manager just to fold on that one. But it shouldn't need this. I also got tired of the first thing they rattle off being "you should take it for a long drive"... I did over 62K km's in my 2016 model in 18 months, and with only two kids that I know of, it wasn't full of school runs.

FWIW - speaking with the engineer from Toyota who eventually came to the party (after I parked the car in the service driveway for another issue and wouldn't move it until it was looked at), he pointed out that the air cooling around the DPF works a little too well at 100km/h and above, with it tucked up at the back of the engine bay. So he showed me in the owners manual where it states you should drive at (from memory) 65 - 80km/h for an extended drive, as it won't cool down as much and can get to it's heat. So that was another excuse used - as about 70% of my driving is in 70 - 80km/h speed area's.

As Rockhop alludes to - they market the car as a suburban vehicle that's very capable for the occasional extended touring/ weekend 4WD set, so there should be no reason the purchaser of said $65K+++ vehicle should have to take special precautions, unless they're outlined when you purchase the car. Such as my little special precaution, when I ended up driving around with a 5L bottle of oil in the boot for the last 15,000km I owned it. The last car I did that with was a 1978 Toyota Crown owned by dad (good car too!).

[Rockhop]

Unfortunately I joined the white smoke of DPF death club last week. This is after 63,000km of trouble free driving. I had the car back at the dealership where I bought it today and the outcome was that the DPF was showing 100% accumulation and had recorded several failed regeneration attempts. A forced regen was carried out and accumulation level was bought back to 2%, fixed!! When I enquired as to how I could prevent this from reoccurring I was told maybe if the vehicle was carrying out a burn I should let the vehicle run until the burn is complete. I pointed out the fact that Toyota had decided to cut the operator completely out of the regeneration process and there is no indication as to its status. “You might notice that the idle is a little higher during a burn”, great, so now I have to be a D4D whisperer. “Listen dear, she’s panting a bit harder, maybe she’s trying to tell us something?”. All jokes aside I really don’t think this is satisfactory and it was telling to find the DPF switches installed on the new LC200s and 70 Series in the showroom but not the Prado. I asked one of the salesmen “what are these for?” Answer “dunno!”
i have to say the dealership was very good. I rang them on Thursday and was booked in first thing Monday no questions asked. I don’t get the vehicle serviced there and there where no questions about the snorkel, prefilter, catch can and other non standard bits I have added. They where polite and efficient for which I am grateful. I think this is a problem that is being poorly handled by Toyota and the dealers are left to carry the can.

You’d hate to tell the mrs that on a hot summers day AC on she will be there for days

This talk of having to go for drives to clear it or wait on idle till it finishes, which could very well be hours Is nothing sort of ridiculous

simple it failed while the car was being used for its intended purpose like a car

If it needs extra special treatment that any other car does not need we should have been made aware when purchasing the vehicle

If they don’t fix it pass all that info onto the ACCC they will have a field day with this

Toyota know all to well that rubbish they are feeding people will not fly if the matter is taken further, but you would be surprised how many people just accept it, hence why they try it on

Keep us posted,

[Faulco]

Unfortunately I joined the white smoke of DPF death club last week. This is after 63,000km of trouble free driving. I had the car back at the dealership where I bought it today and the outcome was that the DPF was showing 100% accumulation and had recorded several failed regeneration attempts. A forced regen was carried out and accumulation level was bought back to 2%, fixed!! When I enquired as to how I could prevent this from reoccurring I was told maybe if the vehicle was carrying out a burn I should let the vehicle run until the burn is complete. I pointed out the fact that Toyota had decided to cut the operator completely out of the regeneration process and there is no indication as to its status. “You might notice that the idle is a little higher during a burn”, great, so now I have to be a D4D whisperer. “Listen dear, she’s panting a bit harder, maybe she’s trying to tell us something?”. All jokes aside I really don’t think this is satisfactory and it was telling to find the DPF switches installed on the new LC200s and 70 Series in the showroom but not the Prado. I asked one of the salesmen “what are these for?” Answer “dunno!”
i have to say the dealership was very good. I rang them on Thursday and was booked in first thing Monday no questions asked. I don’t get the vehicle serviced there and there where no questions about the snorkel, prefilter, catch can and other non standard bits I have added. They where polite and efficient for which I am grateful. I think this is a problem that is being poorly handled by Toyota and the dealers are left to carry the can.

[Rockhop]

Haha mate, she's realised that you're serious :P
Yeah, I'd love the prado (mines a D4D) to have a bit more getup and go, but it's not worth chipping or remapping a D4D as it's asking for trouble with injectors and holes in pistons (that's the sese I get from reading around anway- might be some who have had success, but it's not something I'd be willing to risk without putting better pistons in and new injectors). It's a real shame about them as there are still good diesels around- You don't hear too much grief from 70 series owners. I know there was oil chewing going on early but I think a lot of that was down to guys doing their own services and using incorrect specs and weights. The Izuzu 4j1 and Duramax engines are great and Cummins still make an outstanding engine in the 4BT/ 6BT- It's not as though it can't be done, but Toyota have fell well below the mark of something like a 1HD-FTE.

I'd imagine that the Y62 would be a lot more comfortable than the prado on big trips and it'd have more space for sure- and the power would be exceptional no doubt. I know about the only things you see Y62's doing on youtube is either pulling power runs from 0-100 or racing up sanddunes (which to be fair seems to be what they were designed for- Hello Saudi Arabia). It's frustrating as a Toyota owner that you know that they're able to make better engines but they don't have to- People keep buying them in droves, I know I went to my local show recently and the salesman there told me there was a crazy waiting period for a 70 series in graphite and a 4 week waiting period for a VX 200 series in the same colour- Why would Toyota bother spending money on R&D if people keep queing up to buy them....

The thing is Toyota do make good motors the issues are usually with parts outsourced from manufacturers like denso

The D4D had some not so great pistons which they eventually re designed but even the not so good ones left unchipped are not an issue

count the amount of D4D motors in active use V dead ones you’ll find the % are fairly good in comparison to other motors

I agree the 1VD and 1HD are far better motors than the D4D as they can take a fair hiding and still go 600-800+k, injectors are still an issue with these motors too and there’s 8 on the 1VD to worry about but injectors are an issue for all CRDs

As for the 1GD only time will tell, you can’t judge the motor on a exhaust emissions device which will get sorted eventually if people keep making noise

one gripe with the new prado in an auto is the stupid gearing might as well be a 5spd and it seems all that was to give some crappy unrealistic fuel consumption figure

[Rockhop]

They must be looking at it. It's all over the internet both in forums like this, FacePlant, Motoring websites etc etc. As for the ACCC - I got a very defensive response from Toyota when I mentioned I may look into it for the DPF and the squealing issues I have had. They replied indicating they would escalate it to NCAT (whoever they are) and I would have to be prepared for a lengthy and costly process before anyone could take it to the ACCC. I did see on Berrima Diesel page, though, that they dropped the email of a bloke in ACCC that's apparently looking into it. Thought about sending him an email, but then thought the bloke's just had his work email flashed up on facebook so he's probably not going to be a happy chappy this week.

Cant see how it will cost you, just show up at Ncat and plead your case it’s a civil and administrative tribunal they just hear your side and there’s then decided who is in the right and who is in the wrong

if the ACCC get enough complaints they will take a class action, it happened with fords transmission fiasco

[Atherton]

Haha mate, she's realised that you're serious :P
Yeah, I'd love the prado (mines a D4D) to have a bit more getup and go, but it's not worth chipping or remapping a D4D as it's asking for trouble with injectors and holes in pistons (that's the sese I get from reading around anway- might be some who have had success, but it's not something I'd be willing to risk without putting better pistons in and new injectors). It's a real shame about them as there are still good diesels around- You don't hear too much grief from 70 series owners. I know there was oil chewing going on early but I think a lot of that was down to guys doing their own services and using incorrect specs and weights. The Izuzu 4j1 and Duramax engines are great and Cummins still make an outstanding engine in the 4BT/ 6BT- It's not as though it can't be done, but Toyota have fell well below the mark of something like a 1HD-FTE.

I'd imagine that the Y62 would be a lot more comfortable than the prado on big trips and it'd have more space for sure- and the power would be exceptional no doubt. I know about the only things you see Y62's doing on youtube is either pulling power runs from 0-100 or racing up sanddunes (which to be fair seems to be what they were designed for- Hello Saudi Arabia). It's frustrating as a Toyota owner that you know that they're able to make better engines but they don't have to- People keep buying them in droves, I know I went to my local show recently and the salesman there told me there was a crazy waiting period for a 70 series in graphite and a 4 week waiting period for a VX 200 series in the same colour- Why would Toyota bother spending money on R&D if people keep queing up to buy them....

[CamJam]

Honestly from what I've seen on youtube etc. The worst thing about Y62's are the owners...

You're not wrong there at all. I definitely get the impression there's a little small d*ck syndrome at play, continually trying to say how much less they paid than an LC200, bagging the V8 Diesel in the LC200 (to be fair, it's had a lot of issues) and always talking about power and 0 - 100km times. I joined a couple of facebook pages and forums and pretty well left after a month of sports wheel modifications, 37" wheel comparisons, drag race video's and the constant smashing of any other persons choice in car.

I'd not get a diesel option again though - not for a while. I can work on a simple V8 petrol, and that goes for the LC200 version too. The independent suspension is to a degree negated by the traction control (just like in the Prado) and the HBMC which forces a wheel in the air down as far as possible. At least to the point where I won't need any more articulation (I've previously done all that I have done in a 2009 Pajero). Resale is solid - not if you paid stupid prices earlier, but now it's a $69K drive-away car and early 2016 models are still getting $52K or thereabouts. My Prado cost me $66K and I've got a buyer who is willing to part with $53.5K come change over time. Accessories - spot on though. Front Bars/ Rear Bars/ Roof Racks are fine. But recovery points are neigh on impossible (forcing you to use only one manufacturer of bars - Rhino - that doesn't have a one or three-hoop design).

The worst of it all - as soon as I signed the contract, the squealing stopped in my car (the 'last straw'). I don't know if it's a winter thing, but it's got my pinky-toe just staying inside the car at the moment. I've just come back from Vic HC and it performed superbly - as did the Y62. It was only 6 days - Prado 11.8L/100 (driven by better half), Y62 16.7L/100 (driven by me). That's from a proper litre/ km count too, not the computer.

[Atherton]

Honestly from what I've seen on youtube etc. The worst thing about Y62's are the owners... They've become a great option though as the price has been slashed so much that it's a hard ask to pay the extra 30-40K for a cruiser with the same sort of kit as you get in the base y62 standard. I guess I've got a few misgivings about them though.

• There's no diesel option, petrol (and particularly with a big V8 and towing a camper) is going to be real thirsty if doing any offroad work in remote areas. (it's frustrating that Toyota have made such a debacle with DPF's, injectors and under-powered engines in the 150 (I include both the D4D and 1GD engines in this)- I still honestly think a good diesel engine is a fantastic choice for a 4wd). A good example of where to start on a good design for a diesel would be for Toyota to go pull apart one of those 4J Isuzu motors, by all accounts fantastic engines that can handle big boost.
• Independent suspension all around- I guess it makes it handle better on road, but offroad you won't quite get the flex of a live axle, and according to a few guys you smash tyres when towing as the camber angle goes wonky. (Also makes them harder to lift apparently, but I'm not certain of this)
• Resale value, not sure with a new one but some of those early examples apparently sat on car lots for years until Nissan gave the price a hair cut. Probably not so bad now, but you'd be pretty pissed if you purchased one at full price and then had a 20K touch up on your resale value.
• Accessories availability doesn't seem to be as good as those of a 150/200 where you can basically get anything you want- It's probably a function of popularity and relative scarcity of the vehicle, but certain things are apparently very hard to source.

I can totally understand you moving away from the Prado though with all the issues you've had- It really reinforces the need we have in Aus for lemon laws. I think I remember you saying somewhere that your dealer had been pretty good about it (which is nice to hear, and I'd imagine there'd be plenty who would have just tried to brush you off) but the fact remains that you've been sold a defective product and should be entitled to a refund or new car. I would have loved to see the 150 get an engine that is more capable of moving it around- A v6 diesel like the Amarok has with 550NM would have been a good start...

[CamJam]

Any update on new design, are they actually looking at rectifying this ?

We just had our 2 year book service at 35k on the clock, started seeing white smoke a few weeks back.

Toyota did a forced burn and said to monitor smoke. I also mentioned there was soot in the tail pipe they said that something is wrong, but just monitor it.

Has any one contacted ACCC ?

They must be looking at it. It's all over the internet both in forums like this, FacePlant, Motoring websites etc etc. As for the ACCC - I got a very defensive response from Toyota when I mentioned I may look into it for the DPF and the squealing issues I have had. They replied indicating they would escalate it to NCAT (whoever they are) and I would have to be prepared for a lengthy and costly process before anyone could take it to the ACCC. I did see on Berrima Diesel page, though, that they dropped the email of a bloke in ACCC that's apparently looking into it. Thought about sending him an email, but then thought the bloke's just had his work email flashed up on facebook so he's probably not going to be a happy chappy this week.

[CamJam]

CamJam

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CamJam
Hows the the Y62 treating you? I imagine thats a gem of a motor - hope its not flogging your wallet senseless. Both of my Y61's were absolutely bulletproof and great trucks to live with as long as you didnt mind the truck like handling.

The handling isn't too different from the 200/ KDSS I've had previously - which is pretty good. It's probably a little early to tell with the wallet side - so far it's been 15.2L/100 after 1800km doing the regular driving that I did in the Prado at 11.1L/100km. So that's about 1650 litres more per year or around $2600 worth of fuel (I do around 40,000km/year these days). But as you mention in your last para - I can be assured I have no DPFs, EGRs or Turbo's (or injectors like my 200) that are going to cost a lot, and I can be assured I can get to where I want to go and back when touring. Biggest downside is that there's no great forum like this, as well as fewer things available on the market for it. But too early to tell really. No squealing is a bonus! If they bring out the Petrol Prado again it'd be my next car...

[Rockhop]

Any update on new design, are they actually looking at rectifying this ?

We just had our 2 year book service at 35k on the clock, started seeing white smoke a few weeks back.

Toyota did a forced burn and said to monitor smoke. I also mentioned there was soot in the tail pipe they said that something is wrong, but just monitor it.

Has any one contacted ACCC ?