BEWARE!! dealing with CalOffroad

[AJ120]

My guess is that if people have been stripping CV's and Front Diffs with 570'ish length struts then they were driving in a manner that they'd probably have stripped them anyway even if they been standard non modified vehicles anyway....

Yep, that's my point, a 575mm strut should be fine, the predictions of disaster due to this strut length are just plain scare mongering. Then you have to start inventing new reasons for possible failures rather looking at the obvious, which is failures caused by too much right foot and a lack of mechanical sympathy.

As you say, regardless of strut length those people will break stuff.

Cheers Andrew

[zerosecta]

Whitey, your a physicist so I presume you are familiar with Occums Razor, if so then why ignore the obvious?

Forget Prado's and Cv's for a second and look at driveline failures in general, what most often causes broken axles, busted diffs, torn out clutches and CV's to fail? A lack of traction often resulting in wheel spin, followed by a sudden abundance of traction causing the driveline components to shock load, which can cause immediate failure or weaken them for future failure.
Remember, no more things need presume exist than absolutely nescessary, or the simplest answer is usually the correct answer.
Cheers Andrew

Ummm, Boys, bringing this back into perspective. Couple of things....
1.Assuming what people already do or don't know - ie: treating a customer like a complete retard assuming he\she doesn't know the difference between a tall\short, light\heavy duty springs.... BIG NO NO...

Lets face it folks and lets just get back down to earth a little on this thread.....

2. We are talking about a Prado here, one with two car seats in the back that does 95% of its work on tarmac 5% of that towing a caravan and only another 5% either in the Victorian High Country or the Beach's of the South Australian coast getting treated like a families pride and joy not like a go kart ----
3. its Not like its getting belted through the Dakar desert launching over sand dunes at 130klms an hour...... Seriously.... I'd say the same go's for 99% of the prados on this forum so fair to say that as a learned gentlemen I am more than comfortable to say that a 555mm strut would have been a complete balls up for a 3" lift on my Prado and that I am more than comfortable putting a 575 length strut on it....
And taking a few simple measurements can tell me that - no need to be a Physicist or Suspension expert to work that out right?

My guess is that if people have been stripping CV's and Front Diffs with 570'ish length struts then they were driving in a manner that they'd probably have stripped them anyway even if they been standard non modified vehicles anyway....

[AJ120]

Whitey, your a physicist so I presume you are familiar with Occums Razor, if so then why ignore the obvious?

Forget Prado's and Cv's for a second and look at driveline failures in general, what most often causes broken axles, busted diffs, torn out clutches and CV's to fail? A lack of traction often resulting in wheel spin, followed by a sudden abundance of traction causing the driveline components to shock load, which can cause immediate failure or weaken them for future failure.

Remember, no more things need presume exist than absolutely nescessary, or the simplest answer is usually the correct answer.

Cheers Andrew

[Whitey]

Hey all,

With the valuable input from ####, we're finally getting a more comprehensive picture of the failure mechanism on the IFS, and it isn't CV binding as most think.

566mm open length is a long way from the 578mm open length for rotors getting hard to turn (CV starting to bind) on the 120 series, 12mm and 3 degrees of CV angle to be exact.

As such, I would not classify this problem as CV binding, rather, failures of CV's due to tripods disengaging are due to the inherent flex of the rubber mounts of the front diff. CV's at full droop and the diff flexing down will create enough angle to pop the tripods.

This has got me wondering about utilising a limiting strap to retard vertical front diff motion.

However, even with such vertical diff motion, the fact remains you cannot run a 555mm strut with a 3" lift, as you will end up with only 20-30mm of droop, and you will top-out the struts and flog them.

I think it is still fine to run a 570mm strut on the 120, and a 575mm strut on the 150. If loading of the front diff is an issue, it is an issue that can happen at ANY open length, so there are some obvious remedies, don't gun it on steep hills etc., get lockers and crawl up, look into a limiting strap system to retard diff motion etc.

I myself am interested in strapping the front diff, any ideas and input?

Best

Mark

[Whitey]

Nice work.

The problem here is what many people see as excellent information, there's always someone to argue.

Yes 120's, 2 in fact which had the same struts failed the same offside in a matter of weeks.
One said front up & unloaded but on the the ground low range 1st torque.
The other was a bit vague, could describe the circumstances.

Grab one with 576mm, put it in low 1st, on the hoist & apply the brakes as if it were the load eg; a hill, & go on & off the gas hard, get ready for the BIG CRACK CLUNCK. You will soon see
While its up, loosen the front diff mounts, & wobble the front diff up & down, Note: the movement & all the different locations it can be locked in position. VARIABLES.

The HILUXES I see are more usually likely to be the ones with 3-4 lift & lockers, long travel etc. many of these guys use them also, they carry spare c/v out bush. Most Prado owners are wiser men & stick to a perfect 2" lift.

You got me to write a bit here well done, I hope you can understand some if it.

Over & out.

WHOOOHAHOOAHAHAAAA.......

Hey ####,

All perfectly understandable, and very valuable information for all reading! ...the BIG CRACK CLUNK is not something I wanna try doing!

I'm one of those Prado drivers with a 2" lift, wishing it was 3" for the bush, then looking at my geometry measurements and telling myself not to do it, but then buying custom rear coils from Dobinsons to just try it out and see how much droop I'll lose!

I just shot you a more detailed PM about perhaps running a limiting strap on the diff, would be good to hear more of your thoughts on this if it's possible!

Best

Mark

[Anth120playdo]

Hey ####,

Let's just say I'm currently a suspension specialist/enthusiast. I'm a Physicist in a previous life. I'm pulling 4wd's apart and putting them back together in my current job.

No offense intended with asking you to do anything, but you have provided some excellent new information for everyone to digest.

...was it a 120 series that failed at 566mm? With/without diff drop (not that it makes much difference to CV angle at full droop)? ...I'm guessing this was a wheel off the ground situation, coming down hard?

...and I'm not disagreeing with you about anything, just trying to get to the best technical picture of the problem for everyone.

So with the rubber mounts of the diff flexing, how much can they flex?

All of my suspension geometry measurements on my 120 are in the 120 series suspension section, freely available for all to consider. I'm not interested in achieving status in the eyes of others, I just enjoy understanding the limits of the geometry, and hopefully my measurements can help other Prado owners to understand how their suspension works.

Could you explain more on what the modding of Hiluxes is which makes them more susceptible to CV failure?

If I lived in Melbourne, I'd definitely be attending your workshop tech day!

Best

Mark

Nice work.

The problem here is what many people see as excellent information, there's always someone to argue.

Yes 120's, 2 in fact which had the same struts failed the same offside in a matter of weeks.
One said front up & unloaded but on the the ground low range 1st torque.
The other was a bit vague, could describe the circumstances.

Grab one with 576mm, put it in low 1st, on the hoist & apply the brakes as if it were the load eg; a hill, & go on & off the gas hard, get ready for the BIG CRACK CLUNCK. You will soon see
While its up, loosen the front diff mounts, & wobble the front diff up & down, Note: the movement & all the different locations it can be locked in position. VARIABLES.

The HILUXES I see are more usually likely to be the ones with 3-4 lift & lockers, long travel etc. many of these guys use them also, they carry spare c/v out bush. Most Prado owners are wiser men & stick to a perfect 2" lift.

You got me to write a bit here well done, I hope you can understand some if it.

Over & out.

WHOOOHAHOOAHAHAAAA.......

[Whitey]

Hey ####,

Let's just say I'm currently a suspension specialist/enthusiast. I'm a Physicist in a previous life. I'm pulling 4wd's apart and putting them back together in my current job.

No offense intended with asking you to do anything, but you have provided some excellent new information for everyone to digest.

...was it a 120 series that failed at 566mm? With/without diff drop (not that it makes much difference to CV angle at full droop)? ...I'm guessing this was a wheel off the ground situation, coming down hard?

...and I'm not disagreeing with you about anything, just trying to get to the best technical picture of the problem for everyone.

So with the rubber mounts of the diff flexing, how much can they flex?

All of my suspension geometry measurements on my 120 are in the 120 series suspension section, freely available for all to consider. I'm not interested in achieving status in the eyes of others, I just enjoy understanding the limits of the geometry, and hopefully my measurements can help other Prado owners to understand how their suspension works.

Could you explain more on what the modding of Hiluxes is which makes them more susceptible to CV failure?

If I lived in Melbourne, I'd definitely be attending your workshop tech day!

Best

Mark

[Fred63]

I was just taking the p!55 but seems I'm either too late or too early, depending upon whether its a good argument or "mummy and daddy time"

in case it's not mummy and daddy time
http://gifsec.com/funny/gif-big-bag-of-popcorn/
sit back and enjoy

[Anth120playdo]

...####, I appreciate your comments about tripods pulling out on "Hiluxes & Prados", but you need to back this up by telling us what the strut open lengths were, 120 or 150, and discuss this in relation to where the CV is binding on each vehicle, and exactly at what CV angle and open length the tripod is pulling out.

On my 120 series, I have tried to jack my CV out by pushing down on the UCA with a jack on the wheel guard, and my CV was still well engaged at 578mm and 19.7 degrees.

...I believe the Hilux CV's are also much more problematic than Prados, and there has been numerous reported failures. So what is the open length that the CV binds at on the Hilux? Can anyone provide this information.

I'd like to see a much more informed technical resolution to zerosectas problems.

Anyone with more thoughts on CV binding open lengths, angles and tripods disengaging, please provide some numbers!

Best

Mark

Mark,

Can I ask what is your profession? like your automotive background? Are you a vehicle tech? Suspension specialist?

I don't actually need to do anything here, But you could ask me to back it up, anyway, I will add, There is no exact length.
It varies depending on load the front diff is on rubber mounts which flex.
Yes hiluxes are much more common failure, because of the way they are more commonly modded & used.
It's 10mm difference a bit like the 150.
I have seen Prado failed when fitted with 566mm. Like I said you can get lucky. Also It depends where your diff is mounted.
Hilux is often from around 575mm.
I also work on these vehicles with longer travel & they don't all break c/v's.
Theory is one thing, but practise is where you see what really happens.

I'm not going to back up anything here where people with much less experience with these things like to disagree.
As a Hilux/Prado suspension specialist anyone who wishes to understand is welcome to attend a tech day at my workshop & all will be explained.
Or you can explain to me where I'm wrong

There you go more bad info.

WhoohoohahAhooohaaaaaa

[AJ120]

Saying you run a 555mm open length maximum for safety reasons is beyond ludicrous when you end up with 20mm of droop at 3" lift. The struts will be dead in no time from top-outs, and the car will be very dangerous to drive at high speed on sweeping bends.

And god forbid you drive it on a corrugated road, it would be a toss of the coin as to whether the strut self destructed or you ended up in a ditch on the side of the road within the first 5 minutes!

Cheers Andrew

[Whitey]

Hey all,

I second Andrews comments after having personally measured several ARB struts. The figure of 543mm is misquoted everywhere, even by CalOffroad!

The real open length is 570mm.

I believe the current model ARB struts for 120 Prados/FJ's etc, run a slightly shorter open length of 565mm.

Saying you run a 555mm open length maximum for safety reasons is beyond ludicrous when you end up with 20mm of droop at 3" lift. The struts will be dead in no time from top-outs, and the car will be very dangerous to drive at high speed on sweeping bends.

Running a long travel strut is all a question of knowing the open length where your CV binds. As I stated above, for 120's, it is around 578mm, and I'm not aware of anyone running a 570mm open length strut on a 120 who has popped a CV. Steve (member 8608) might have something to say about this, as he runs about a 3.5-4" lift on the front of his 120, and is prolly running higher than 570mm to increase his droop.

The 150 series CV binding length is somewhere in the 580-590mm range according to zerosectas measurements.

I'd like to see some more measurements from other 150 drivers.

Anyone with a 150 in Brisbane can come to my place on the weekend, and I will measure everything in the IFS.

As AJ has said, the level of technical information coming from this thread is average at best. Cal, nobody here is confusing wheel travel with strut length.

...####, I appreciate your comments about tripods pulling out on "Hiluxes & Prados", but you need to back this up by telling us what the strut open lengths were, 120 or 150, and discuss this in relation to where the CV is binding on each vehicle, and exactly at what CV angle and open length the tripod is pulling out.

On my 120 series, I have tried to jack my CV out by pushing down on the UCA with a jack on the wheel guard, and my CV was still well engaged at 578mm and 19.7 degrees.

...I believe the Hilux CV's are also much more problematic than Prados, and there has been numerous reported failures. So what is the open length that the CV binds at on the Hilux? Can anyone provide this information.

I'd like to see a much more informed technical resolution to zerosectas problems.

Anyone with more thoughts on CV binding open lengths, angles and tripods disengaging, please provide some numbers!

Best

Mark

[AJ120]

Well it can be disputed if you get the whole story, and measure the strut as installed.







And it's like magic, all of a sudden the measurement is actually 570mm.

In my case I run a strut top spacer making the "effective" open length 576mm.

Those struts in the picture and my vehicle is a 120 and this is a 150 thread, but I have had this discussion previously and the 150 is the same deal.

Cheers Andrew

[AJ120]

It's easy to measure an ARB strut to confirm that it does in fact have an open length of 543mm as so often quoted, have a look below for proof positive!







Obviously 543mm open length, cant be disputed as you have the photographic evidence right!

Cheers Andrew

[Mattfunk 120]

There is so much bad info coming out of this thread it's almost painful to read, and to be honest I can't be bothered arguing with people, but I will say that often quoted measurement for the ARB strut is incorrect, the same measurement is quoted for the 120 and the actual measurement is 570mm. With some other mods I run an effective open length of 576mm without issue.

Cheers Andrew

I'd be interested to know why? Trying to understand as much as I can about suspension. Please learn the ignorant.
Matt

[AJ120]

ARB struts are 543mm open

There is so much bad info coming out of this thread it's almost painful to read, and to be honest I can't be bothered arguing with people, but I will say that often quoted measurement for the ARB strut is incorrect, the same measurement is quoted for the 120 and the actual measurement is 570mm. With some other mods I run an effective open length of 576mm without issue.

Cheers Andrew