Would you pull me out?

[mjrandom Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close mjrandom]

Holy sh!t... don't tell me the smartbar can actually make you smarter!

Let me think about that. No.

[ntp Addicted PP Member Find all posts View Profile Close ntp]

NTP if you spend enough time with even the dumbest of people they will eventually say something sensible that you will agree with, its the law of averages. Don't beat yourself up about it.

You've hit the nail on the head.

You want me to get going on Smartbars again?

NOOOOOoooooo!!!!!

[Trekrider Banned Find all posts View Profile Close Trekrider]

I'm sorry I can't comment on the 120 as I have no experience of the vehicle. What do you base your comment on the aftermarket recovery points not being engineered? Challenge rejected as I don't have the time to satisfy your issues with this product, I have no concerns over the product as I have them on my car. I really don't want to get into the technical side of this debate as I'm actually more interested in the legal and moral aspect.

I have never seen any evidence to support the fact any of these aftermarket points have been through any form of engineering design nor do the advertisers offer any in their marketing that I have seen. In any case, as you say you are interested from a legal point of view, I don't have to prove they aren't 'engineered', in the case of an incident it is up to the supplier to prove that they are and I don't believe they can.

I do not have the authority to make decisions on the minimum requirements for any organised 4x4 event as I do not sit on any of the committees. What I am saying is that event organisers have a duty of care to participants and it is my opinion that they are failing their duty of care if there recommendations or actions encourage practices that are contradictory to manufacturers recommendations.

Personally, if I were a committee member I would encourage passing on the manufacturers recommendations and be very clear that the committee would take no responsibility should participants decide to not follow them.

I have seen organisers openly saying that factory points are acceptable, knowing full well that this practice is recommended against.

These organisers should reconsider their position on this subject and the position they could be putting the organisation in that they represent.

I agree that the organisers have a duty of care and they should point out that use of tow points (either OEM or ARB bullbar) for snatch recovery is not recommended. The problem comes when you are setting minimum standards for attendance - if you insist on rated recovery points then you exclude anyone with a 120 and an ARB bullbar.

[Trekrider Banned Find all posts View Profile Close Trekrider]

Trek, we can agree after all. I accept that they may not have engineering and I'm willing to fight that out if I need to if there is a failure.
The fact is that it would be better for me in that event that they couldn't prove it.

I don't think there is really a need to insist on having AMRP's,
I'm saying that people need to carefully consider the wording of the minimum requirements.
The last thing I would personally want to do is discourage off road driving, especially people in WA with 120's that I may need to pull me out one day!

Well said

Funny thing is, I've had my snatch strap for about two and a half years and it's still in its original packaging - never used. I've always used the winch when I've had to do a recovery.

[Guest Close Guest]

Nothing wrong with the minimum vehicle requirements for the 2012 GTG. Why not use that?

[Guest Close Guest]

http://www.pradopoint.com/showthread...e-Requirements

[ntp Addicted PP Member Find all posts View Profile Close ntp]

Can you just re-post the relevant requirements too Andrew? :roll:

[D4D Addicted PP Member Find all posts View Profile Close D4D]

Why is this thread still going?

[Peterpilot Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close Peterpilot]

I believe these minimum requirements on recovery points for the 2012 GTG are sensible and reasonable:

The website will be up and running within the next day or so with a full list, but before that; here is some info on the one that always causes the most controversy!

Recovery points

In the minimum vehicle requirements we have set you will see that we have specified “suitable” recovery points. Given the controversial nature of recovery points we will offer the following as a guide to what the committee believes to be suitable!

Original equipment tie down points: these are suitable for towing only. They are not suitable for snatching or winching.

Outback Ideas recovery points (or similar) when used with a bridle are considered suitable for most recoveries including snatching and winching. These recovery points must be attached with minimum grade 8.8 bolts.

ARB bullbar loops when used in conjunction with a bridle are considered suitable for most recoveries including snatching and winching, high tensile bolts with a minimum grade of 8.8 should be used on these as well.

Towbars are considered suitable for most recoveries including snatching and winching, The use of a recovery hitch is needed for winching, and is also advisable for snatching. If using the hitch pin to attach the snatch strap this must be a minimum of grade 10.9 metric or grade 8 imperial. The towball MUST NOT be used for recoveries under any circumstance.

Rated recovery hooks (10,000lb) securely attached to the vehicle chassis or on solid mounting points that are securely attached to the chassis using minimum grade 8.8 bolts or grade 5 if using imperial bolts; are considered suitable for most recoveries including snatching and winching, especially when used in conjunction with a bridal.

These requirements are NON-NEGOTIABLE! If you attend this event without meeting these requirements, you will not be included in GTG activities.

See Ya in SA The Committee

[Anth120playdo Banned Find all posts View Profile Close Anth120playdo]

It's still going because we haven't finished yet!

I think AJ's requirements are spot on.

My interpretation is that people with only factory points only are not excluded but will only be recovery with a tow, is that correct?

Of corse they won't be excluded.
They have factory tow points not tie down points.
Just lucky prados come equipt.

[Anth120playdo Banned Find all posts View Profile Close Anth120playdo]

At the top it says it's a guide.
Then at the bottom it non negotiable.
Which s it?

[Trekrider Banned Find all posts View Profile Close Trekrider]

I believe these minimum requirements on recovery points for the 2012 GTG are sensible and reasonable:

Well, those requirements certainly put the cat amongst the pigeons again. The argument against using the factory tow points is that Toyota state that they are not recovery points and shouldn't be used as such - fair enough, but the requirements quoted above go on to say that the ARB loops are fine for snatch recoveries despite the fact ARB clearly state that they are not to be used for snatching and are tow points only. This is clearly double standards - either accept both or neither.

[Trekrider Banned Find all posts View Profile Close Trekrider]

For those that have never seen it, here is the statement I got from the ARB National Product & Services Manager regarding the ARB bar and snatching:

"Thanks very much for the opportunity to address this very important issue.

First and foremost, all 4x4 owners need to be aware that there is no rating system for 4x4 recovery points. There’s no Australian standard, no ADR or state regulation either.

The only regulations in force on recovery gear (in Australia) are in Queensland and that relates to recovery straps only, and not what they are attached to. ARB’s straps of course comply with all aspects of these regulations, which refer to minimum breaking loads rather than load ratings.

We supply rated shackles, and there is Australian standards coverage for these, as they are from a range of products sourced from industrial lifting gear suppliers. Several magazines have done really good articles in recent years on how strong these shackles are and how much safety margin is built into them. That margin means that the point at which these items fail must be at least six times the stated Working Load Limit (WLL) (Australian Standard AS2741- 2002). That’s exactly the sort of safety margin you want to know is in force when you walk along a city street with a crane working on a building high above you. They simply cannot be allowed to fail.

Great, I can hear you saying, let’s apply the same safety factor to our recovery points.

Bit of a problem there, I’m afraid.

Take your Prado 120 as an example. Its kerb weight is 2.17 tonnes, Gross Vehicle Mass (GVM) is 2.9 tonnes. Say we want to provide a recovery point for this vehicle with a safety factor of 6 times that can be used with a snatch strap that has a minimum breaking strength of 8 tonnes. Then that point needs to survive a test load of 17.4 tonnes because that’s the total weight of the vehicle multiplied by 6 and over the break load of the strap (we always want the strap to break rather than break what it’s attached to).

But wait! What if the vehicle has a caravan on when it requires recovery, say in a boggy caravan park after a storm. That vehicle can have a 2500kg trailer/caravan as well, so now our recovery point needs to be surviving a load of 32.4 tonnes.

I can tell you that a recovery point that can survive that sort of load is a serious chunk of metal and there are a lot of vehicles where it would be difficult to find a point on the chassis strong enough to mount such a device, let alone survive the test.

Now, for all you mechanical engineers out there, you will understand that the load required to pull a vehicle is less than that required to lift it. However, we are hypothesising on application of lifting standards here (so hence that approach), but do not discount the off road situations we all encounter, the ledges we might be up against, the suction of a boggy mud hole, and the often less than straight-on direction of a recovery operation. For these reasons it is valid to want to have a safety factor. We definitely do not want hardware breakages anytime, anywhere.

I need to get off my soapbox, don’t I?

Your ARB Prado bar, even if it is not a winch capable bar, is designed as a winch bar initially and fully tested for winching with the largest winch that will fit. This design includes a replacement for the factory tow point which is engineered to be strong enough to anchor the winch rope hook in a double line pull recovery operation. It is also suitable for towing the vehicle and light duty strap recovery.

I’m pleased to say also that the last time I was on this particular soapbox, I was at a meeting to discuss ARB developing an industry standard for vehicle recovery points. This is a work in progress within our development engineering team so stay tuned for some exciting new products and industry leading practices in the near future."

And this from the ARB WA Sales Manager:

"Thanks for you email regarding your Prado.

The ARB bar comes with towing eyes in the mount frame, these are design for flat towing as the Prado does not come with any such points from the factory. Being a winch bull bar, this bar has been tested to withstand the stresses and strains of warn winches.

Winches are quite different too a snatch recovery when it come to loads place on the bull bar. The winch has a “stall” point that prevents over loading at the winches capability so that the winch is operated with in its capability, where as a snatch recovery can have an uncontrolled load placed on the recovery points of the bogged vehicle. The load on the bogged vehicle is completely dependant on the recovering vehicle’s speed and the ability of the snatch strap to stretch and recoil with in its limits. Most snatch straps are rated to 8000kg breaking strain in comparison to a winches maximum load of 4100kg for a 9000lb winch.

In practice the two towing points on the mount frame of the ARB bar can be used in a recovery situation where a bridal is used to share the load between the tow points and the recovering vehicle is driven at a very moderate speed to tow the vehicle out rather then snatch it out."

So, as can be seen from the above responses, the ARB loops should not be used for snatch recoveries according to the manufacturer - how does this differ from Toyota saying you can't use their tow loops for snatch recoveries?

[Trekrider Banned Find all posts View Profile Close Trekrider]

Coming back to the dilemma I have:

I have the later model 120 with factory tow points that Toyota say should not be used for snatch recoveries. I know people use them for that (despite the advice from Toyota) but nobody can show any evidence of them ever failing when used in this way. I would have thought that a failure of this kind would have made its way onto Pradopoint if it had happened. I also have 10,000lb rated recovery hooks mounted using the correct High Tensile bolts to the mounting points provided for them on my XROX Bar. I know for a fact these recovery points fail - I've seen photographs of failed ones and have a colleague in work who has personally experienced them failing in a recovery situation more than once.

So if I ever find myself in the position I need to be snatched (last resort as I would use the Maxtrax or winch first) which do I use - the ones they say I shouldn't use but have not been shown to fail, or the ones that I'm told I should use but are known to fail? If it was my work colleague doing the recovery he wouldn't give me a choice as he now refuses any recovery that involves recovery hooks.

So, serious question, which do I use?

[Peterpilot Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close Peterpilot]

With the X-Rox bar, why not install the Outback Ideas (or similar) 120 series recovery points?