Drilling into rig frame

[Paul1972 Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Paul1972]

Thanks for information

[LiveFreeAndRoam Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close LiveFreeAndRoam]

In the interest of a healthy discussion, I've added my thoughts below...

I like this method over the tow hitch for many reasons.

1. They are always there, you never accidently forget them.
2. 2 points shares the load.
3. A towbar for a Prado is rated to 2500-3000kg, then you attach a 8000kg or more snatch strap, thats why it is not recomended.
4. This method satisfies all the requirement for recovery hooks set out in the FWDSA training manual.
5. They are "Rated" recovery hooks.

1. They are always there, you never accidently forget them.

Whilst the hooks are always there, you also need to remember to carry the bridle, straps, shackles, etc. Remembering the recovery hitch point is no more of a challenge than packing straps etc. For the case where it is forgotten, a hitch pin will suffice, which is usually a little easier to have permanently packed. This is a moot point, imho.


2. 2 points shares the load.

I don't believe this is much of a differentiator. Mechanically, the towbar is bolted to both chassis rails. This does a better job of distributing the load evenly than a bridle, assuming you remember to pack the bridle.


3. A towbar for a Prado is rated to 2500-3000kg, then you attach a 8000kg or more snatch strap, thats why it is not recomended.

The tow capacity of a vehicle is in no way relevant to the forces it can withstand for a recovery. Tow capacity is calculated using many factors, few of which affect the recovery. For instance, tow capacities take into account transmission, brakes, engine size, suspension, power steering coolers, weight, tyres, bearings, chassis, manufacturer's fudge factor, and more.


4. This method satisfies all the requirement for recovery hooks set out in the FWDSA training manual.

I am interested to know where FWDSA indicates a hitch recovery point is not adequate.


5. They are "Rated" recovery hooks.

AFAIK, the hitch receiver is not rated for recovery, for whatever that is worth. The bow shackle that attaches to the receiver is rated.


I'll add a couple of other points for discussion and consideration...


6. Hooks are directional

A side load on a hook will destroy it, which I have personally witnessed on two separate occasions, as an observer and not participating. After they destroyed the hooks, in an act of desperation, they proceeded to recover the vehicle via its axle!

This also raises concerns about the integrity of a hook that has been used many times with some side forces involved. I also know a case where a recovery hook broke free and left an occupant totally blind. There were other risk-taking behaviours that contributed to his blindness and he almost paid the ultimate price. Nonetheless, a recovery hook was involved.

A hitch recovery point is suited to pulls in any direction. There are two types, and the better one has the bow-shackle pin insert vertically, which really maximises the angles that can be safely used for the pull.


7. Hooks retaining clip is a weak point

How many people have hooks where the retaining clip has been damaged or broken off? A damaged retaining clip makes the recovery hook extremely dangerous, as the snatch strap is no longer secured in place. When snatching, skull dragging in reverse, etc, that hook is liable to drag and damage the retaining clip. I've seen this happen too. In fact, the worst case was when a first snatch failed, and the next attempt caused the snatch strap to *snaaaap*. On closer inspection, the strap had slid over the pointy end of the hook, which pierced the strap which then broke. You could see the strap was torn halfway across its width, where it attaches to the hook.


8. My experience with hooks is such that I cannot trust them

When a hook is used, my procedure after every snatch attempt is to recheck the strap is secured. This is not always easy, especially when the car is stuck in a sticky bog. Even then, I will never trust the integrity of a hook, which is liable to have unseen damage.

I am yet to witness or even hear about any situation where a hitch recovery point failed. This is my compelling reason for preferring a hitch recovery point over any other rear recovery point (except maybe a rear-mounted winch, which I cannot afford).

LFaR.

[AJ120 Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close AJ120]

In the interest of a healthy discussion, I've added my thoughts below...

4. This method satisfies all the requirement for recovery hooks set out in the FWDSA training manual.

I am interested to know where FWDSA indicates a hitch recovery point is not adequate.

LFaR.

I didn't say nor does FWDSA say that a hitch recovery point is not adequate I said it is not my preffered method, and FWDSA say it is not recommended although they teach you can use it if no other suitable point exists.

FWDSA is a registered training organization, In their training manual (April 2012) for the course: SISODRV302A Drive and recover a 4wd vehicle, on page 27, section 6.1.2

6.1.2 Recovery points.

Recovery points must be attached to the front and rear of the vehicle. At each recovery point, rated recovery hooks must be securely attached to the vehicle chassis or on solid mounting points that are securely attached to the chassis.

If these recovery points are bolted to the chassis, high tensile bolts of the appropriate size must be used to attach them.

WARNING:

Tie down points are not recovery points and must not be used for recovery purposes. Tie down points have only been designed to restrain vehicle movement while being transported.

Tow bars are not recommended for use as a recovery point. Most tow bars have a design loading rating less than the rating required for recovery purposes.

If you are comfortable using the hitch reciever then by all means go that way, it may be the preffered method of some individuals but is not the preffered method for the 4wd clubs in SA who are affiliated with the National 4wd association and I would be confident that these opinions would be consistent through all training branches in all states as they are done to National training standards.

Cheers Andrew

[LiveFreeAndRoam Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close LiveFreeAndRoam]

I understand.

Personally, when the evidence merits it, I challenge any accepted standard. It's an important process in progressing the cause of safe recoveries. In this case, just because a 4WD association says it is so, does not fill me with confidence, especially when my experience clearly points to the dangers of recovery hooks. I see them as minimally acceptable. Certainly better than using the axle as a recovery point .

In the sense of good, better, best: I would equate that with hook, hitch, winch.

LFaR.

[D4D Addicted PP Member Find all posts View Profile Close D4D]

This is the reason I upgraded my tow hitch to the HR. I now have 10 high tensile bolts into the chassis and crossmember spreading the recovery load across the whole rear of the vehicle when I use the hitch receiver for recoveries.

[AJ120 Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close AJ120]

The preferred rear recovery point is the towbar hitch with suitable recovery block. LFaR.

I guess I chimed into your post because of the word "THE", when talking about recoveries and recovery points etc I get quite pedantic about things. Using the term "the" without clarification suggest to the casual observer that this is the method sanctioned by some group or authority (well thats how I read it). Subtitute MY for the and then it is clearly a personal opinion which is more than fair enough.

My position comes from a training background and what is needed to teach people the correct way to do things.

I know we are getting off topic here as this is about drilling holes to fit recovery points and I think we all agree that is both unwise and unnessecary, however I currently have the rear bar removed from my Prado for a little project I am working on, I also have spent the last 2 days reading and researching regulations into towbar design and testing procedures (my head hurts now) I might find a more appropriate thread to post some pics and thoughts as to why the hooks are IMO a better option.

Cheers Andrew

[LiveFreeAndRoam Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close LiveFreeAndRoam]

Pedantic is good and I mostly strive for the same level of clarity/accuracy. This time I was a bit lackadaisical, going for expediency over total clarity. At least it has brought out some interesting points, I think. It certainly caused me to pause and think a little more deeply about it, and that didn't even hurt a bit .

If I had my way, I would ban recovery hooks. My experience with recovery hooks must have been seen by others all over the place, yet they are still a common form of recovery point. If you need a hook-like fitting, then I think Trekkrider's solution is *much* safer.

I like the idea of another thread for this topic too. It's good to capture the discussion under an appropriate topic and keep it all in one place. I look forward to learning what you've learned.

LFaR.

[craigm Addicted PP Member Find all posts View Profile Close craigm]

Thoughts go back to Brads Hilux recovery at Beerburrum LFar...

[LiveFreeAndRoam Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close LiveFreeAndRoam]

Yes, that's the one Craig, thanks for posting! That was caused by a recovery hook with a damaged retaining clip. I wish someone would post the video that also showed it snapping. It was damn frightening! I remember seeing a splash in the water where it broke free and a microsecond later, a cloud of dust where it landed in front of the recovery vehicle. It still gives me a chill when I think about it. As always, everyone was standing well clear so no harm came to anyone.

Knowing one person who was blinded at the tender age of 17 (almost killed) by a recovery is enough to raise my level of anxiety at any failure in recovery equipment.

LFaR.

[Paul1972 Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Paul1972]

Yes thanks, there are dangers to all levels of recovery, there are dangers associated with everythingin life.
All i want is secure recovery points, im a newbie, and im going to get into stuck situations, and im going to need to be able to pull it out.
Im more confused than before, i cant afford the tow bar option, im not towing.
Im getting the boss 4 tow points on front, and possibly on rear, but he said he needs to drill a couple of holes.
Arent all after market mods drilled into chassis like side rails etc?
Whats the disadvantages to drilling into chassis, frame?
I just dont wantto be forced into using original tie down points again.
As i got stuck deep in mud and had tow truck driver pull me out by single original tie down point.
And when the tow truck driver was winching there was an almighty noise like the rear end ripped off but it was the dodgy setup the truck driver had, he used a hook into the tie down loop and it had slipped off mid winch.
I dont know much about recovery but i knew he was using dodgy equipment.
And his methods were dodgy.
There must have been alot of force stuck in that much mud, winch doing all the work, but it got me out.
But basicallyi want a recovery point setup front and rear, which is legal, and recognised by the official 4 wd tag along lessons for learning recovery practises, as they have standards.
If recovery is so dangerous, why are there not rated recovery points for the prados.
It could all be so easily solved
Peace

[Trekrider Banned Find all posts View Profile Close Trekrider]

Any modification to the chassis, be that welding, drilling etc. requires specialist knowledge (and skills) plus an Engineer's certificate. Rock sliders clamp onto the chassis and require no drilling - likewise bullbars, rear bars etc. just bolt on. The problem with drilling, welding or otherwise modifying the chassis is that you are likely to weaken its structure if you don't know what you are doing.

Provided you have no bullbar or the Sovereign bullbar you can get cheap rated recovery plates for the front (about $80). If you have the ARB bullbar you currently can't get recovery points to fit (until someone like AJ120 designs and build some). I can't comment on other brands of bullbar.

For the rear you can either use hooks (like AJ120) at about $20 each plus a few bucks for a small plate for the drivers side or make up plates like I did to take shackles (about $20 from memory).

[AJ120 Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close AJ120]

Paul, in situations like this having your location listed
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< HERE

would be helpful. You can do this in your settings. I see you are from Mount Barker, a couple of hours away from me but not so far out of the way if I am heading to Adelaide. I could probably sort you out with something if you wanted.

Being in Mount Barker which 4wd shop are you going to FNB4WD? I would have thought they would be on the ball about these things.

Anyway maybe shoot me a PM if you want some help.

Cheers Andrew

[D4D Addicted PP Member Find all posts View Profile Close D4D]

I didn't say nor does FWDSA say that a hitch recovery point is not adequate I said it is not my preffered method, and FWDSA say it is not recommended although they teach you can use it if no other suitable point exists.

This is interesting as both FWDVIC & FWDAU teach using the hitch receiver as primary recovery method.

[MidLifeCrisis Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close MidLifeCrisis]

Pics below are obviously for a 120. I like this method over the tow hitch for many reasons.

1. They are always there, you never accidently forget them.
2. 2 points shares the load.
3. A towbar for a Prado is rated to 2500-3000kg, then you attach a 8000kg or more snatch strap, thats why it is not recomended.
4. This method satisfies all the requirement for recovery hooks set out in the FWDSA training manual.
5. They are "Rated" recovery hooks.



I am not saying don't use a hitch reciever, but its not the "best" option IMO.

Cheers Andrew

AJ

Did we use the rear points when I had to drag your bum off that mound at Loveday?

Just asking........

mlc

[BrettM Member Find all posts View Profile Close BrettM]

Welding to the chassis isn't a big issue, I have repair a couple of chassis for friends by cutting out rusted sections and welding in plates but I am a boilermaker/welder with my welding inspectors certificate. I have even welded in new engine mounts for a conversion done to an old cruiser all were inspected and certified (chassis repairs and engine mounts) if its load bearing then the correct electrodes need to be used ie low hydrogen and should be baked before use. I don't think drilling a couple of holes in the rear of the chassis would be an issue unless they were very large holes but 12mm or 14mm wouldn't be I big concern to me. Brett