Our STUPID laws

[RareSense Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close RareSense]

Speaking from experience, there would be more to this than meets the eye. The cop wrote him up the lessor of the three offense which is a good thing $44 as opposed to a couple of hundred sounds like a good option. Sadly, what you are all referring to is discretion. Unfortunately, a lot of discretion has been taken away from the police, due to public, yes you know the types that complain at a drop of the hat. I wouldn't be surprised if the cop received a complaint by one of those types of nieghbours usually retires with nothing better to do than whinge about this bloke parking illegally, window down etc. Poor cop goes down, uses his common sense and writes him up the lessor of the fines, that way the idiot that possibly rang up who is watching to complain about the police officer if he didn't do his job and book them. Poor cop is damed if he does or dammed if he doesn't seen it time and again in NSW. But remember he is representing the laws that his community has asked him to enforce and most probably as a direct result of a complaint. Their is always too sides to a story, Stewart in that article was just playing lip service to the media, these guys never take time to find out the story.

[geograzza Member Find all posts View Profile Close geograzza]

apparently in Brissy it's against the law, can you believe that ??? if it's open more than 50 mm you get fined $44.00

While I think its a daft law, qld is actually a bit better than a lot of the country. The Australian road rules specify 20mm as the limit you can leave your windows down. I know SA has adopted the 20mm rule, not sure about other states.

[RareSense Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close RareSense]

That is true. But it also can create an air of corruption.

Totally true, in NSW after the royal commission police lost a lot of discretion at the demand of the minority of the public knee jerk reaction to over media sensationalism (seriously handful out of 16000 NSW police) unfortunately to the detriment of the majority. Unfortunately, their is good and bad in any job but where power is concerned there is checks and rightly so in place, sometimes too many as in NSW where.there is over 5 watch dog bodies watching the Police. My argument was if your are going to clean house don't just do one room (police) do the lot, lawyers, the Judical system, Politics ....look how corrupt our politics are from local,state and federal - dare I mention the Obeids. Police are on a whole in Australia is pretty good in fact we are recognised as having some of the best in the world, yes even better than the English bobby. I believe this matter is trivial but I'm more inclined to believe and I would not be surprised if this law came from a coroners recommendation - something as simple as a young child getting access to an unsecured vehicle and being killed or injured as a result of a misadventure. For example: playing and taking a handbrake off on a hill without a seat beat being involved in a collision or whatever. Have heard of young kids injured and killed playing in cars.... There's many perspectives ..... Referring to traffic cops, in my book there's not enough of them..... Mobile phones scourge, speeding etc, drunks, let's get it in perspective more people are killed on roads than by all murders and violent offenses nationally (fact), let alone injuries and cost to public. Loose a member of family to an idiot driver and try and tell a kid why his dad didn't come home from going up the street to buy dinner! There's a bigger picture than fines here which again society dictates that the officer enforces. Ohhhh one more thing, in car videos in police cars equal zero discretion, would you let off a speeding driver, who should know better with the possibility of a corruption charge and loose your job whilst you've got a mortgage, kids and paying off your precious prado???? No I didn't think so. cheers

[RareSense Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close RareSense]

Apparently he tracked down the cop who issued the fine and asked what evidence he had and the cop replied it's on video so the guy asked to see it and the cop said I dont know where it is and I'm too busy to go and find it !!! as I said it begs the question why go there in the first place it's all most like let's get out there and piss Joe public off, or is it just an easy nick to keep his numbers up ? either way it does the cop's no favors (or us) at all, and yes Bushy Mr O'Callahan DID say, and I quote, "we have to move away from petty infringements as they serve no purpose other than turn the public against us when all thats needed is a caution"
funny way of showing it aye ?

Discretion and applying the law in the spirit it was made is crucial to effective and fair policing, unfortunately discretion due to public demand has be nailed in a response to allegedly stopping corruption and uniform fairness. Theirs 5 watch dog bodies, plus in car and personal recording devices on NSW police. It's not that easy as you think.... Oh and in NSW (fact) and I believe it is the same in other states there is no such thing as a quota for Highway Patrol -it's an urban myth. In all seriousness they don't need too, I'm in Sydney, it's a jungle, between bad driving, mobile phone,seat belts, entering clogged intersections, cutting off people, just drive around and see how many things you see just on a quick trip up the road.....

[bucket Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close bucket]

I couldn't agree more about discretion, to me it was always an important, if not the most important 'power' that a copper has. Mention has been made about the reduction in that power, which after nearly 30 years in the job, I can agree that a large amount of discretion for the individual has been taken away by various means. Politicians that want figures to prove that the police are earning their money, bosses that want to prove to their bosses that they can do the job better than someone else plus the watchdog bodies trying to avoid corruption, they all add to the pressure faced on the individual to keep the job that the bulk of them take pride in doing.

Believe it or not, the crew I worked with in traffic were interested in making the roads a safer place to be, not in revenue raising as most people seem to think. If there was no threat of getting caught for doing something wrong, I don't think I would enjoy driving as much as I do. Let's face it we all have to use the road system, even if it's just to get somewhere to drive off road. Just to be clear, the police do not keep the money that is raised by fines, it goes into consolidated revenue that same as any other tax, stamp duty or excise.

To finish, I'll just put a little scenario to you. If you left your vehicle insecure by leaving the window down and something of value was stolen from it, would you then claim it on insurance. If you answer yes to this, you have just cost the general insured community more. Insurance companies don't run for the good of the community, they are there to make money. If claims become more prevalent, the premiums go up. Recent floods and house insurance are a good example. While I understand that it may sound like a trivial fine for leaving your window down, the law was most likely put in place to save the greater community.

[shodown Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close shodown]

Absolutely agree 100 % at 64 I've all ways had respect for the law but not after my little experience with them I now see why the public challenge them, sorry but no one will tell me this is not one of the DUMBEST laws I've ever heard of I mean who's car is it ? if it gets robbed you wont to do it again and how is the window being closed going to stop them breaking in any way, no sorry ex cop but if you cant see why this infuriates people then you too are simply not listening to the public , maybe this is a government qualification of the job, I mean pollies dont listen either do they ? I have to wonder what ever happened to good old common sense, just when was it we lost that precious commodity................?

Have you had a thought about what could happen if the vehicle is actually stolen and not just robbed?

Hit and run, ram raids, high speed chase? Potential for innocent people to be hurt!

The guy gets his panties in a bunch because a cop let him off with the lightest offence? They should slap him with the other two for being a whining little b!tch. Man up, own your mistakes and move on.....

[Ian Reid Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close Ian Reid]

Have you had a thought about what could happen if the vehicle is actually stolen and not just robbed?

Hit and run, ram raids, high speed chase? Potential for innocent people to be hurt!

The guy gets his panties in a bunch because a cop let him off with the lightest offence? They should slap him with the other two for being a whining little b!tch. Man up, own your mistakes and move on.....

I agrree Showdown. He may have ben hit with the smallest of fines but this infringement had the most potential for harm. I annoys me that these fellas get pinrged for doing the wrong thing and whinge about it. Amazed how many people whinge and argue when they get caught speeding or whatever., can't seem to consider that they were breaking the laws and deserved the fine. You get what you deserve, build a bridge.

[RareSense Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close RareSense]

"Generally" they may not, but it only takes a couple of these little sociopaths in uniform (and many seemingly gravitate to traffic) who apparently enjoy their fast cars and power just a little too much. They become rather, umm, lets be polite and say "enthusiastic" about exercising their authority, and unfortunately they taint the whole force. If you have been in the job you know the ones I mean.

Funny that, it was the detectives in NSW that gave police nationally a bad name through a small number that were corrupt. Highway Patrol just to clarify are a first response unit, arm hold ups, domestics etc, I can say that they were the most motivated and professional unit I had the pleasure to serve in or work beside (in Taskforce I used them alot). Working war zones like Bankstown etc the majority of my time was spent not on traffic, that's what I got to do between jobs and more importantly targeting the ferals, bikes (outlaw) and hoodlums where I'd end up finding guns or drugs or arresting serious offences like aggregated break and enters. People need to get it into perspective I let off more than I ever did write up and it was usually because they failed the attitude test.... Rarely do people ever speed just ask them or it was for 5 klm over really???? Never did I wate my time doing a uturn for any under 80kph in 60kph. Fact was I gave 10% on speed limit giving speedo and driver error then I added plus 3 for instrument error ( it was plus or minus 1or 2 by the book in the motorists favour) if thos doing 80 were ok I drop it down and at times depending on circumstances, location or danger I'd caution them, it all about common sense reducing road trauma not revenue. I'd would have loved to have taken some members of the public on one shift let alone 14 years it would change your attitude to be "enthusiastic". What I saw in my first week of service few of you would not experience in a lifetime that included picking up a body spread 106 meters up a railway track putting it in a body bag because government contractors could not go down on live rail system in Sydney. Let alone cot deaths or kids killed. I have seen that much carnage on the road it would make you sick, let alone going to give all the death messages both to at fault offenders but sadly victims and seeing the impact on loved ones in the flesh - not words or I can imagine you can't unless you've been in that terrible situation of delivering that devastating news.. I think it would certainly change a lot of attitudes against police having to go tell a mother that her husband and two kids were killed by a speeding driver it happens. "Joe" public always thinks it will never happen to them only to someone else. Unfortunately people these days they never take responsibility or accountability for their actions there is always excuses or society to blame, point remains the buck stops with the person who commits the offense wether trivial or serious, not the officer who is enforcing society wishes and laws. Our attitude should be is my drivers license is a privilege not a right and we would all be better off on the road. Think next time your driving, when your mobile rings or text. Or your running late and speeding. Seriously seen decent folk who've killed a kid apologising for their actions but it's too late it doesn't bring back the poor kid or help the family with their loss, they are at fault and I personally gave no quarter charging them with full extent of the law - culpable driving causing death (driving manslaughter - goal time). You are all aware of the road rules no excuses, I'm running 5 min late for work just doesn't cut it sorry tell it to the dead kids family. You are all in the comfort of your home, some being arm chair warriors or bush lawyers against writing words in safety, it's the consequences of actions that count -go do an accident and see decapitated and mangled bodies that we'd clean up time and again and protect you guys from seeing it, I'm sure some of you have probably seen little or no death and to those who have been affected by tragedy I sinserely apologise that my former colleagues where not there at that critical time that to get the offender and prevent it. Further, it was a thankless job, hence why I will fly the flag for the boys in blue, until you've actually done it and worked some war zones you don't really appreciate what the police actually do for you. Oh next time your being booked think of the carnage the officer has seen when you say "why aren't you out there getting real crooks haven't you anything better to do?" He's obably just finished a domestic, locked up a druggie or bikie, or maybe even finished at a fatal. I was near killed on the job being airlifted, and given last rights protecting the public but I cop it sweet as I chose to do it no excuses or regrets. Just disappointing reading some comments up here. Personally, I would have written him up the lessor of the three being the window offence $44 a-posed to $300 plus for the others IF I received a complaint other wise I wouldn't have wasted my time. Remember police are accountable and have to write the job off most probably as a result of member of the public reporting it. Secondly, I don't have all the facets only media which I learnt after 14 years is rarely accurate and they omit lots of facts on the matter on that note. I will get off my soap box.

[Bushbasher Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close Bushbasher]

Most thieves are opportunist (read lazy) and will target anything that they can get their hands on without too much effort. Most cars are stolen these days using the keys. They enter your unlocked home whilst you sleep or are watering the back lawn. They grab your keys, your missus' handbag and are gone in 20 seconds along with your pride and joy. And why take a clapped out 10 year old Commodore when there's plenty of Audis and Mercs just waiting to be taken for a joy ride.

[Steve M Addicted PP Member Find all posts View Profile Close Steve M]

I don't have an issue with highway patrol as most as mentioned above who have been in the force use common sense. Only time they ever pissed me off was when they tried pinging me for an orange light years ago which in the end ended in my favour due to the circumstances. What really piss me off and as far as I'm concerned are the ford territory with mobile cameras. There is one that gets up around on a main rd from my house and in the last few weeks moves up n down the same street trying to find the best spot to get more people but I thought they were to be placed in black spot areas ??? We have family members in the force one in particular is in highway patrol (commander I think is his position) and even he hates them as a lot of people think there run by the cops, there not and have absolutely nothing to do with them. I know people say ""don't speed"" and you won't get cought. That's true but how many people on here have crept up over the limit by 3 or 4 klms over the limit by accident ?? I would say 99% even using cruise control. If that was a cop you wouldn't get book pretty much guaranteed but if that was a ford territory you passed at that exact moment you would gone.... Just revenue in my books. Seriously, is doing 113/114 in a 110k zone going to make any difference if you ran into a tree !!! .... Cheers Steve

[t303 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close t303]

Raresense, I have great respect for you and the other honorable officers. I don't know whether I could do the job, and I must say that all of the police that I have worked and socialized with have been top folk. But one or two bad apples will taint the whole barrel, and it seems as though they operate with impunity and affect the perception of the public generally. There is also a demonstrated reluctance (I have experienced it several times in my neighbourhood )by police to take an interest in property crime and antisocial behavior because everyone knows the courts will put them back, unpunished, on the street tomorrow. It must be be rather demoralizing to see your time wasted thus. In the industry I work in, 15-20yrs ago there was respect, trust and understanding with the regulator but that changed when the dept. started to get creative with the interpretation of the rules and began punishing minor infringements with fines etc (policing only) rather than encouraging safety. These days you are advised to call your lawyer before speaking with the regulator whereas in the past it would be sorted over a cup of coffee. All that remains is suspicion and mistrust. Any of this sound familiar?

[The Alberto Member Find all posts View Profile Close The Alberto]

To finish, I'll just put a little scenario to you. If you left your vehicle insecure by leaving the window down and something of value was stolen from it, would you then claim it on insurance. If you answer yes to this, you have just cost the general insured community more. Insurance companies don't run for the good of the community, they are there to make money. If claims become more prevalent, the premiums go up. Recent floods and house insurance are a good example. While I understand that it may sound like a trivial fine for leaving your window down, the law was most likely put in place to save the greater community.

No worries with insurance - you have a duty of care as the owner of the vehicle to ensure that all reasonable steps have been taken to secure both the vehicle and the property inside. You call your insurer and tell them that your $2500 camera was stolen out of your car and that the windows were down and the claim will be denied. No forcible entry = no claim. Same goes for theft of the vehicle itself. Windows down, unlocked, keys in the car - All ways for the insurer to get out of paying. Convertibles are different as the "reasonable" steps to securing the car is essentially removing the keys, however you still can't leave valuables on the seat and expect them to be covered.

[bucket Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close bucket]

What really piss me off and as far as I'm concerned are the ford territory with mobile cameras. There is one that gets up around on a main rd from my house and in the last few weeks moves up n down the same street trying to find the best spot to get more people but I thought they were to be placed in black spot areas ??? We have family members in the force one in particular is in highway patrol (commander I think is his position) and even he hates them as a lot of people think there run by the cops, there not and have absolutely nothing to do with them. I know people say ""don't speed"" and you won't get cought. That's true but how many people on here have crept up over the limit by 3 or 4 klms over the limit by accident ??

Had a little chuckle to myself on this one Steve. Tassie and Victoria have both had unmarked speed camera vehicles since their introduction (at least in Tassie) and we're now used to it I suppose. I love the ones you have in NSW that have warnings prior to getting to it. Can't believe they still catch speeders! The government used the 'black spot' comment here to when they brought them in. Now they're used in 'trouble spots'. At least the ones here are still manned by police and they have some discretion at to allowing different allowances for different positions for example if it's on a hill they might raise the speed a bit at which the camera goes off. Did the camera thing for a while, not my favourite job and actually had items thrown at me by passing cars!

[Steve M Addicted PP Member Find all posts View Profile Close Steve M]

Yeah if you get pinged by the ones that have three warning signs then I really do wonder wether the person should be driving. The territory's have them but they are so small and if there is a car beside you your not going to see it but if you see a vehicle parked by its lonesome on the side of the road it would pay to proceed with caution lol. Any of the cameras I drop off at least 5 to 10k from the posted speed limit as I go through them, I don't trust them one little bit. Its when the territory's park between cars and things that you cant/don't notice them. As I said easy said don't speed but these things are pinging people 3k over which to me is purely for revenue....Cheers Steve

[RareSense Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close RareSense]

I don't have an issue with highway patrol as most as mentioned above who have been in the force use common sense. Only time they ever pissed me off was when they tried pinging me for an orange light years ago which in the end ended in my favour due to the circumstances. What really piss me off and as far as I'm concerned are the ford territory with mobile cameras. There is one that gets up around on a main rd from my house and in the last few weeks moves up n down the same street trying to find the best spot to get more people but I thought they were to be placed in black spot areas ??? We have family members in the force one in particular is in highway patrol (commander I think is his position) and even he hates them as a lot of people think there run by the cops, there not and have absolutely nothing to do with them. I know people say ""don't speed"" and you won't get cought. That's true but how many people on here have crept up over the limit by 3 or 4 klms over the limit by accident ?? I would say 99% even using cruise control. If that was a cop you wouldn't get book pretty much guaranteed but if that was a ford territory you passed at that exact moment you would gone.... Just revenue in my books. Seriously, is doing 113/114 in a 110k zone going to make any difference if you ran into a tree !!! .... Cheers Steve

Steve M - to me it's about education of public to reduce road trauma. Personally 113 or 114 kph n a 110kph zone is in short ridiculous and serves no real purpose or benefit. If I got done for that I would take it on at court as an expert radar operator as 4kph variance defies logic and common sense as you have to factor in human error, speedo variances and radar variance having 3 to 4 klm on such a high speed limit would never have happened under police traffic management and I really can't believe that they would do it. If that is truly the case then it should be returned to traffic police that are trained radar and check speed certified operatives that fully understand all facets of traffic enforcement being experienced and exposed to the human element of enforcement ie: speaking to drivers who are real people, mums, dads, families and hoodlums, financially struggling people etc, so you have an idea before being put in a sterilized environment responsible for setting up a speed camera. Personally, I hated camera duties as I always argued I had more impact stopping and talking to the offenders. Imagine further if you go past a speed camera continue on and injure someone ...... or if it's a stolen vehicle or someone who committed a crime they have got away with it as well as all the other offenses I would have detected if I had stopped them. When tasked to do it I would set it at 20kph above the designated sign posting as I deemed it fair. I didn't agree with warning signage in short you shouldn't be speeding, secondly I've been in highway cars were I checked passing vehicles that sped up after the camera unit. So signage defeats the purpose in my book. Hehe must admit at times I did leave my blue and reds lights flashing if I didn't agree with my tasked location: ). Hehe I remember we got this relieving commander who was one of our Sergeants transferred in from HQ THAT WAS HARDLY EVER OPERATIONAL only a pen pusher trying for a higher rank operationally! I thought he was a goose in short. He gave me a direction to set the radar at 72 koh in a 60kph zone. I reminded him that I had ministerial power and I as the radar operator I will set it at 80kph as per legislation. I kindly implied that if wished to sign as the radar operator and go to court then he could also operate the radar (I did it with all due respect). Thankfully the department was smart enough not to give him a commanders job and return him to koala duties in HQ were he couldn't be shot at or exported (transferred) hehe. EFFECTIVENESS OF SPEED CAMERAS :- Now as much as I hate to admit it speed cameras worked. I worked radar before and after the introduction of speed cameras in NSW. BEFORE CAMERAS: I wouldn't do a u turn unless over 90kph in a 60kph zone, it wasn't unusual to get a 120kph along Canterbury road, Campsie in a 60kph zone two lanes north and south, so over 45kph and over 30kph over the speed limit was a normal occurrence whilst over 20kph was slow and everyone travelled at it, you wouldn't waste your time. it was seriously like shooting fish in a barrel. AFTER CAMERAS: Blanket speed started dropping dramatically. Started doing u-turns for over 80kph. over 45kph and 30kph weren't a daily occurrences anymore and gradually got harder the longer and more cameras were introduced so frequency of high speeds dropped overall. So on that regard it was a good thing.

In closing SteveM if in fact these peanuts are setting and booking people for 3kph over in a 110kph zone then it's plain wrong, prohibitive and revenue raising, I bet a politicians wife owns the contracted company and they clip the ticket pardon the pun on infringements issued! !