Bull Bars Under Threat

[photoprado Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close photoprado]

Re: Bull Bars Under Threat

Yes but! the current proposal is to adopt the european standards. This means no bullbars steel, aluminium or plastic. I far as i can ascertain the much promoted smartbar in this thread will not meet the euro standards. That means if the current proposal is accepted the only protection from animal strikes will be your plastic bumber bar. Once again if you are arguing for something in between what we now have and the Euro standards, show me the statistics on how many Australians are hit by bullbars resulting in worse injuries than would have been sustained with smartbar. Don't worry i know you can't show me the stats because there are none.

So lets be honest, those arguing for change are basing their argument on no evidence at all, for all we know you might be arguing for saving 1 person from getting a broken leg instead of a bruise. Now that would be worth spending millions of dollars on wouldn't it. Yes i know it is likely to be worse but how much worse? nobody knows. End or argument as far as i am concerned.

Cheers Andrew

Andrew, have you read the paper?

ABSTRACT
In Australia, during the period of 2000 to 2009, an average of 232 pedestrians and 31 cyclists were killed each year as a result of collisions with vehicles.

(Page 47)The fitting of a VFPS to a vehicle subject to GTR 9 through the Australian Design Rules (ADRs) would at least require re-testing of each vehicle model, as the performance characteristics of the front structure of the vehicle would be significantly altered with regards to pedestrian protection. This would be true whether the VFPS is fitted as original equipment or as an aftermarket item, given that state and territory regulations apply to in-service vehicles and generally require continued compliance to the ADRs.

Note the words. They do not say that a VPFS will not be allowed under any circumstances, they say that a VPFS will need to be tested to comply with the proposed ADR's.

Lets be honest, the proposal is not to ban Bull Bars at all, but to require that they be designed and tested to be pedestrian friendly.

[Matty80 Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close Matty80]

Re: Bull Bars Under Threat

I think we find ourselves in the same position as we do with most arguements of this nature...
2 sides of the fence, neither budging...

We have gone over and over this for the last 8 pages...

I like my bullbar, I will keep my bullbar as will many others - suffice to say, i'll have a few spare in the shed that i will have picked up free!

[jeff s Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close jeff s]

Re: Bull Bars Under Threat

Lets talk motorcycles,
I like motorcycles, I like mine, and I like the way it looks.
Front numberplates were banned years ago because they had sharp edges.... :shock: it hurt people when you hit them..??
Recently the Gov wanted them bought back, then arguments of pedestrian safety came up, also areo dynamics, structural intergity of motorcyle mudguards for retrofitting etc etc.
it has been put on some backburner.

So on one hand the gov want to put sharp things back on motorbikes, but take sharp things taken off cars??

Everyone who looked at the bike proposal could read between the lines that a speeding bike cannot be identified from a front on speed camera, if cameras are turned around the revenue drops as ppl doing 5 over the limit can slow down to avoid th fine if the camera is seen. so sharp things on bikes === $$$$$ in the coffers.

Then on the other hand they want sharp things taken off cars???? IS it a money thing??? or are they really trying to protect us from our selves???? or are they bending to an agressive pedestrian council???? I'm a pedestrian (sometimes) and I say keep the bars..... Nanny state stuff.

I would agree that the pics that NT put up should only be on your outstations back paddock, or in the B&S balls ute show, not on the road.. well not in a built up area. but who am I to tell someone they can't do that?
Thought it was a free country... phhoowwweee... gone are those days..

[tassie tiger Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close tassie tiger]

Re: Bull Bars Under Threat

I like my bullbar, I will keep my bullbar as will many others - suffice to say, i'll have a few spare in the shed that i will have picked up free!

But you can keep your bullbar. They are not going to take your bullbar off you. Why is this so hard to understand?

[Matty80 Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close Matty80]

Re: Bull Bars Under Threat

[quote=tassie tiger]

I like my bullbar, I will keep my bullbar as will many others - suffice to say, i'll have a few spare in the shed that i will have picked up free!

But you can keep your bullbar. They are not going to take your bullbar off you. Why is this so hard to understand?[/quote:20tb83db]
I was being theatrical, I know I can keep the one I have - more importantly, perhaps I should have said... I want to keep the option of having a bullbar on any 4WD i buy, now or future...

[Chuck Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close Chuck]

Re: Bull Bars Under Threat

I would just like to see some examples of what bars you can have under the new standard.
When you read the paper it just talks about what tests need to be done to get the bar approved and that's well beyond my level of expertise :shock: :shock:
Pics of what complies and what does not would be good.

There's and old saying "a picture is worth a thousand words" and in this case the words mean nothing to the average punter.


Chuck

[tassie tiger Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close tassie tiger]

Re: Bull Bars Under Threat

[quote=Matty & Loz][quote="tassie tiger":1ovt8yun]

I like my bullbar, I will keep my bullbar as will many others - suffice to say, i'll have a few spare in the shed that i will have picked up free!

But you can keep your bullbar. They are not going to take your bullbar off you. Why is this so hard to understand?[/quote:1ovt8yun]
I was being theatrical, I know I can keep the one I have - more importantly, perhaps I should have said... I want to keep the option of having a bullbar on any 4WD i buy, now or future... [/quote:1ovt8yun]

And I was being a #### stirrer

[AJ120 Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close AJ120]

Re: Bull Bars Under Threat

I would just like to see some examples of what bars you can have under the new standard.
When you read the paper it just talks about what tests need to be done to get the bar approved and that's well beyond my level of expertise :shock: :shock:
Pics of what complies and what does not would be good.

There's and old saying "a picture is worth a thousand words" and in this case the words mean nothing to the average punter.


Chuck

Under the proposed standards no bullbar on the market today would comply, also driving lights protruding on the front of the vehicle along with nudge bars and probably winches would also not be allowed. If anyone can point me in the direction of specific credible information to prove otherwise feel free, but as far as i can ascertain factory front ends will have almost no room to be changed. The title of the thread says it all, its not bullbars to undergo change, it is bullbars under threat.

Interestingly I was at a meeting last night and spoke to several people who work for the SA government in various departments, they are currently introducing rules making it mandatory for vehicles operating in the country to have bullbars! and in one department specifically steel bullbars.

Cheers Andrew

[Matty80 Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close Matty80]

Re: Bull Bars Under Threat

Interestingly I was at a meeting last night and spoke to several people who work for the SA government in various departments, they are currently introducing rules making it mandatory for vehicles operating in the country to have bullbars! and in one department specifically steel bullbars.

This is very interesting news indeed... Implications?

[lionel Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close lionel]

Re: Bull Bars Under Threat

Under the proposed standards no bullbar on the market today would comply, also driving lights protruding on the front of the vehicle along with nudge bars and probably winches would also not be allowed. If anyone can point me in the direction of specific credible information to prove otherwise feel free, but as far as i can ascertain factory front ends will have almost no room to be changed. The title of the thread says it all, its not bullbars to undergo change, it is bullbars under threat.

Cheers Andrew

Andrew,

This is fully compliant with the standard:



from http://www.endura-fps.com/index.php

They don't have a Prado example listed, but do have D3, range rover and pajero.

IMHO, this is at the least protecting the "core" of the vehicle, the raditaor etc and keeping the vehicle dirvable after animal stirke. In a pre emptive stirke on "What about the headlights??" Would it not require a very very very wide roo (or similar) to substatially damage both sides of the car if the centre is undamaged??

And it would certianly be plausible to add protective wings that are compliant with the standards

Cheers

Ed

[tassie tiger Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close tassie tiger]

Re: Bull Bars Under Threat

Game, set and match to Ed.

[lionel Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close lionel]

Re: Bull Bars Under Threat

Twisting the logic on it's head for a minute, and let's look at the unintended consequences of a successful campaign to reject the regulation....

Let's assume that the sway of the "Please don't ban bull bars" group persuades the government that this is a bad idea and they don't introduce the regulation, let's think through the implications and ignore those struck by 4wd's with and without bull bars...

1) The regulations are not introduced, bull bar owners (and future owners) rejoice, and continue as they are

2) Amongst the "normal car" population, these is no requirement to comply with the standard, so the number of "normal" cars sold which comply with the standard (euro speccd models will do this anyway) will be lower than if compliance was mandatory

3) A higher proportion of the pedestrians/cyclists unfortunately (or through their own stupidty...) will be struck by non compliant "normal" cars, leading to higher rates of injury and death

This is not an outcome that any of us wants (excluding the 1% of us who, statistcally speaking, are psychopaths/sociopaths and don't care about anyone else)

This issue is bigger than just banning bullbars, it has consequences across all vehicles.

So, to those of us who are against it, and I can see your reasoning and respect your point of view, please argue for an exemption for 4wd's/country vehicles, rather than outright rejection of the regulations.

Cheers

Ed

[lionel Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close lionel]

Re: Bull Bars Under Threat

Oh, and apologies to those offended by posting a a jeep photo on a prado forum ops: but it was either that or a landrover :twisted:

[Justo Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close Justo]

Re: Bull Bars Under Threat

There is a fine line between safety and stupidity! Where do you draw the line between the two? Ask me the question of which car I would rather be hit by at 30-60km.... my answer is neither...they both going to cause serious damage.!!! :roll:

Hi Justo

You would be surprised at just how survivable being hit by modern cars at urban speeds is. Lots of bruises, a broken bone or so but amazingly survivable. Where is the line? I think the line is somewhere in the middle of where we are now and where we could be.

But you see when you are a young person, an elderly person, a drunk person or the unlucky sod hit by the vehicle running the red or not watching the crossing, you dont get to ask the question of which car will hit you. That decision is out of your control.

cheers

You say it like its a good thing to be hit by a modern car..I take your point that yes they are "more" survivable but I would rather not find out as would anyone that's not on a death wish I would hope! But here I make the point..no hit is a good hit.!

That decision is out of your control but it is a risk you take everytime you walk out your front door is it not.? We do have a few to many wankers on our roads and with that in mind do you just take of from an intersection without checking the right or left, do you just take of when the light turns green? Do you just walk when the light says you can walk? Or maybe just walk because it's a pedestrian crossing and it has right of way? Maybe I'm the odd one but I'm aware of the situation around me, watch what's going on around and drive/ride/cycle/walk to the conditions. I'm aware and watching the traffic stop in every other direction even before my light turns green! How about promoting the fact that people need to think for themselves and everyone around them and more importantly think ahead, instead of trying to put them in a place and inferring to them they dont have to think at all.!! :roll:

Another point has been made about Canada and other countries do also have large animals, but I would like to point out that in higher traffic areas and certainly areas where the larger animals are the roads are fenced off and overpass or underpass provisions are made for the animals to cross sides freely. We do have a couple of these in Australia also, but obviously with the large distances of road in Australia and the amount of larger wild animals it's impossible to control.

I'm afraid I sit fairly solidly on the other side of the fence/bullbar on this one.!! I would be happy enough to compromise should something be available to fit all my requirements but I really don't believe in the big picture that is what this is all about.

[AJ120 Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close AJ120]

Re: Bull Bars Under Threat

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I stand by my comment above, that is not a bullbar that is nudge bar :P

As to it certainly being plausible to add wings, this comment is based on an intimate knowledge of the euro standards and an even more intimate knowledge of the characteristics of the design and materials and mounting system used by this nudge bar manufacturer, or are you just speculating :roll:

Cheers Andrew