Bull Bars Under Threat

[lionel Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close lionel]

Re: Bull Bars Under Threat

Far out! Not this whole shemozzle again! I mean..... again! Look. Car with a bullbar travels at 110km/h and hits someone - they get badly injured. Car with no bullbar travels at 110km/h and hits someone - they get badly injured. Spot the difference? Exactly!!!!! There is no difference! To stop cars hitting people you'd need to either take all cars off the road or reduce the speed limit to zero. Fantastic options both. Life cannot be guaranteed, all you can do is be a little smarter about it.

I agree, but hit that same pedestrian at 20k's or 30, or 40, or 50 and the one hit by the bull bar is probably a lot worse off, not to mention those who find themselves in a side impact with a vehicle with a bull bar.

I don't think we can claim in one breath that the purpose of the bull bar is to protect the occupants from animal strike and then claim that there is no difference in the impact on pedestrian or cyclist

The move is based on improving pedestrian and cyclist safety in the event of a collision. Safety is of course an important consideration but I think these proposed laws are completely inappropriate for Australian conditions which have little in common with European cities. The plastic nudge bars being promoted that do conform to these Euro standards look completely inadequate to me particularly if a roo darts out in front at 100kph.

Does Australia really have an exclusive license on large bits of animal walking around the countryside (think deer, moose, bears in northern hemisphere) or sparsely populated harsh climates (parts of canada and northern europe) are we really that special?

What are the numbers likely to be for unfortunate pedestrians hit by cars, to be hit by one sporting a bar? I'd hesitate to say that the percentage of the overall incidents would be pretty low. Just another 4WD bashing session by someone IMO.

Cheers,

Dave

How many people die or are badly injured each year when their non bull bar equipped vehicles hit an animal? It's not something I have heard much of (but I'll stand corrected). Are we as a group overreacting to a perceived threat and fitting bull bars needlessly?

Pedestrians also do stupid things

Agree that pedestrians need to take responsibility for their own actions, but what's the worst thing the pedestrian is going to do to your car if they walk into it?? Maybe dint a panel... It's very hard to stop the 0.05% of people who are doing the wrong thing (being drunk, texting, listening to music, etc etc), but there is probably a fair smattering of innocent people who weren't doing anything "wrong" and as stated before, blaming the victims doesn't tend to win over the general public

... The attack on vehicles fitted with bullbars is blame-shifting levelled at we 4 wheel drivers by a minority self interest group with a set agenda. We all know that removing bullbars will not have any "impact" in lowering the road toll.

Umm pedestrians and cyclists a minority...? I think most of us qualify as one or both. And I'm sure the AAAA has no "self interest" in continuing to manufacture and sell bullbars to 4wdrivers...

I think we need to be careful about a knee jerk reaction to change. By creating the challenge to the status quo maybe we are prompting the innovation to come up with a win-win solution (for instance who fits a "five-poster" these days, or would if they were available, and how many people hate their airbags, and want to go back to old school diesels and solid axles and column shift and 2 speed auto gearboxes ...).

Guys, please don't get me wrong, I love my 4wd and I love taking it to the places where a normal car is not going to go, and yes, for the record it has a bullbar on it (the Toyota alfoil job) - although I wouldn't fit one in the future for a vehicle which (unfortunately) spends 80% of it's time in Perth (despite my lease company automatically including it in their quote, without asking :roll: ).

I'm here to have a discussion of the subject at hand, and hopefully my challenge helps you to improve your arguments, or convinces you that maybe this isn't such a bad thing, but just in case someone(s) decides to unleash the flames, i'm off to don some asbestos undies...

Cheers

Ed

[Dakkas Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Dakkas]

Re: Bull Bars Under Threat

[quote=lionel]

Far out! Not this whole shemozzle again! I mean..... again! Look. Car with a bullbar travels at 110km/h and hits someone - they get badly injured. Car with no bullbar travels at 110km/h and hits someone - they get badly injured. Spot the difference? Exactly!!!!! There is no difference! To stop cars hitting people you'd need to either take all cars off the road or reduce the speed limit to zero. Fantastic options both. Life cannot be guaranteed, all you can do is be a little smarter about it.

I agree, but hit that same pedestrian at 20k's or 30, or 40, or 50 and the one hit by the bull bar is probably a lot worse off, not to mention those who find themselves in a side impact with a vehicle with a bull bar.

I don't think we can claim in one breath that the purpose of the bull bar is to protect the occupants from animal strike and then claim that there is no difference in the impact on pedestrian or cyclist

The move is based on improving pedestrian and cyclist safety in the event of a collision. Safety is of course an important consideration but I think these proposed laws are completely inappropriate for Australian conditions which have little in common with European cities. The plastic nudge bars being promoted that do conform to these Euro standards look completely inadequate to me particularly if a roo darts out in front at 100kph.

Does Australia really have an exclusive license on large bits of animal walking around the countryside (think deer, moose, bears in northern hemisphere) or sparsely populated harsh climates (parts of canada and northern europe) are we really that special?

What are the numbers likely to be for unfortunate pedestrians hit by cars, to be hit by one sporting a bar? I'd hesitate to say that the percentage of the overall incidents would be pretty low. Just another 4WD bashing session by someone IMO.

Cheers,

Dave

How many people die or are badly injured each year when their non bull bar equipped vehicles hit an animal? It's not something I have heard much of (but I'll stand corrected). Are we as a group overreacting to a perceived threat and fitting bull bars needlessly?

Pedestrians also do stupid things

Agree that pedestrians need to take responsibility for their own actions, but what's the worst thing the pedestrian is going to do to your car if they walk into it?? Maybe dint a panel... It's very hard to stop the 0.05% of people who are doing the wrong thing (being drunk, texting, listening to music, etc etc), but there is probably a fair smattering of innocent people who weren't doing anything "wrong" and as stated before, blaming the victims doesn't tend to win over the general public

... The attack on vehicles fitted with bullbars is blame-shifting levelled at we 4 wheel drivers by a minority self interest group with a set agenda. We all know that removing bullbars will not have any "impact" in lowering the road toll.

Umm pedestrians and cyclists a minority...? I think most of us qualify as one or both. And I'm sure the AAAA has no "self interest" in continuing to manufacture and sell bullbars to 4wdrivers...

I think we need to be careful about a knee jerk reaction to change. By creating the challenge to the status quo maybe we are prompting the innovation to come up with a win-win solution (for instance who fits a "five-poster" these days, or would if they were available, and how many people hate their airbags, and want to go back to old school diesels and solid axles and column shift and 2 speed auto gearboxes ...).

Guys, please don't get me wrong, I love my 4wd and I love taking it to the places where a normal car is not going to go, and yes, for the record it has a bullbar on it (the Toyota alfoil job) - although I wouldn't fit one in the future for a vehicle which (unfortunately) spends 80% of it's time in Perth (despite my lease company automatically including it in their quote, without asking :roll: ).

I'm here to have a discussion of the subject at hand, and hopefully my challenge helps you to improve your arguments, or convinces you that maybe this isn't such a bad thing, but just in case someone(s) decides to unleash the flames, i'm off to don some asbestos undies...

Cheers

Ed[/quote:3kycfy03]

Lionel - very well said mate. Thinking outside the box and thinking of the big picture.

I'm personally very surprised at the monotone replies above and the ignorance shown by so many people.

[Dakkas Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Dakkas]

Re: Bull Bars Under Threat

Far out! Not this whole shemozzle again! I mean..... again! Look. Car with a bullbar travels at 110km/h and hits someone - they get badly injured. Car with no bullbar travels at 110km/h and hits someone - they get badly injured. Spot the difference? Exactly!!!!! There is no difference! To stop cars hitting people you'd need to either take all cars off the road or reduce the speed limit to zero. Fantastic options both. Life cannot be guaranteed, all you can do is be a little smarter about it.

Yep you're right - at 110kph anyone would be killed... and if you're doing those speeds its very unlikely there would be pedestrians around (or so I would hope). The difference is when you're in towns/cities - which is where most of our cars spend over 80% of their time. You would more than likley be doing 30-60kph when you hit someone and this is where the big difference comes into play re: bullbar vs no bullbar. So you're argument isn't valid.

To those others who comment about stupid pedestrians etc what about children? I'm sure many of you have children, and I'm sure you know how unpredictable they can be. Honestly I can't get past how ignorant some of you are in your comments. It's comments like the above that give the 4x4 community a bad name.

FYI, I have a 4x4, it has an ARB bull bar which I put on it. But I'm realistic and acknowledge that it would cause more carnage if I was to hit someone. I certainly wouldn't have fitted it if I lived in a captial city and hardly ever ventured bush - I mean the liklihood of hitting a roo (or similar) for most of you is really REALLY unlikely.

[photoprado Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close photoprado]

Re: Bull Bars Under Threat

As I see it, there is a bit of an impasse on the Bull-Bar issue.

* Regulators don't want them in metro areas (for good reason)

* Genuine 4WD'ers need them when out of the metro area. (for good reason)

What's needed is innovation, but I doubt it will happen until there is regulation, so I think they should bring on the regulation.

Did I just say they should regulate Bull Bars in metro areas? :shock:

Michael

[tassie tiger Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close tassie tiger]

Re: Bull Bars Under Threat

Well written Ed - and that took some guts to put that out there. I have done similar in the past (not on pradopoint) and been howled down.

The changes WILL require a rethink (and considerable costs) on the part of bullbar sellers however it would be achievable. The main issue will be that the bullbar will need to be 'skinned' to allow some give so that they pass the tests to do with the impact upon the bones of the material.

Blaming pedestrians is not using the old noggin very much. The majority of pedestrians killed are the elderly, children and non sober (drink or drugs) young males (up to about 30). The elderly know better than to walk in front of cars but have poor perception and observation - you cant teach these things at that age. Children are children and will do what children do - fail to think through the situation. And drunks are drunks.

A bit of thought and an outcome that suits everyone can be had. It will take a little more than arguing that Kangaroo strikes cost insurance companies money.

cheers

[tassie tiger Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close tassie tiger]

Re: Bull Bars Under Threat

[/quote]

Lionel - very well said mate. Thinking outside the box and thinking of the big picture.

I'm personally very surprised at the monotone replies above and the ignorance shown by so many people.[/quote]

Hi, I think the ignorance is understandable given the impression you get from the media (particularly 4wd media) and 4wd shops where the first thing they want to sell you is a bullbar 'for safety'. You see it in a lot of threads that Bob has just got a new prado and almost automatically the first thing to fit is a bullbar because thats what people have been conditioned to do.

They dont tell you that fitting a bullbar to a modern vehicle (even an airbag compatible one) WILL reduce the survivability in a BIG frontal collision as the bullbar spreads the hit across the front (both chassis rails) of the vehicle which reduces the vital crumpling of the front adding to the chances of surviving.

If that is confusing try this - put your arms out straight and walk towards a wall so that your arms stop you. You can feel the impact. Now do the same but with only one arm outstretched in the same position. Walk into the wall again - the force on your body is less. Your arms are the chassis rails.

cheers

[Guest Close Guest]

Re: Bull Bars Under Threat

I'd like to see manufacturers take the design approach of bullbars similar to roof racks. You put them on when you need them, take them off when you don't. This would be a good compromise but is harder to implement than straight out banning bullbars. Bullbars not only offer better protection in a roo strike but they are useful in obtaining better approach angles and the ability to mount a winch.

I for one only have a nudge bar and only for the sole purpose of mounting a pair of spotlights. I don't see the need for a bullbar yet but will get one when I really, really need one.

[Dakkas Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Dakkas]

Re: Bull Bars Under Threat

If that is confusing try this - put your arms out straight and walk towards a wall so that your arms stop you. You can feel the impact. Now do the same but with only one arm outstretched in the same position. Walk into the wall again - the force on your body is less. Your arms are the chassis rails.

cheers

Exactly. This is why if you must have a bullbar, the new smartbars are a great bit of gear. Very effective at minimising/preventing damage too in animal strikes.

Hit a fully grown roo with a steel bar and you can twist your chassis, bend the bar and pierce the radiator. Hit same roo with a smart bar and you'll probably have only a busted headlight and/or minor other damage.

I think I've said this somewhere before - when I lived in rural NSW the local police had a Pajero with a smart bar. I used to have the odd drink with one of the coppers and we were talking about the smart bar one day. He said that one night they were heading to a serious car accident and they hit a roo full on at 150kph - the only damage was a busted headlight and the inner linings of the front drivers side mudguard. Oh and a few of the plastic pannels needed clicking back in.... not to mention a really thorough cleanout as you can imagine what would happen to a roo hit at that speed :shock:

[croozza Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close croozza]

Re: Bull Bars Under Threat

If that is confusing try this - put your arms out straight and walk towards a wall so that your arms stop you. You can feel the impact. Now do the same but with only one arm outstretched in the same position. Walk into the wall again - the force on your body is less. Your arms are the chassis rails.

cheers

Exactly. This is why if you must have a bullbar, the new smartbars are a great bit of gear. Very effective at minimising/preventing damage too in animal strikes.

Hit a fully grown roo with a steel bar and you can twist your chassis, bend the bar and pierce the radiator. Hit same roo with a smart bar and you'll probably have only a busted headlight and/or minor other damage.

I think I've said this somewhere before - when I lived in rural NSW the local police had a Pajero with a smart bar. I used to have the odd drink with one of the coppers and we were talking about the smart bar one day. He said that one night they were heading to a serious car accident and they hit a roo full on at 150kph - the only damage was a busted headlight and the inner linings of the front drivers side mudguard. Oh and a few of the plastic pannels needed clicking back in.... not to mention a really thorough cleanout as you can imagine what would happen to a roo hit at that speed :shock:

Those smart bars are crap, why have a bull bar on if it will still allow damage to the vehicle, lets look at your example, they still had damage after hitting the roo, I have hit a very large roo with a steel bullbar, this was in the middle of the night in the middle of nowhere, and I had no damage to the vehicle, this saved me being stranded in the middle of nowhere.
One thig you need to know about smart bars, is that you can not fit a winch to them, these two simple things (steel bullbar and winch) can be your life saver in the bush.
The governments and these bleeding hearts need to have a good look at themselves and stop blaming the wrong group of people.
Yes it is sad when children get hit by cars, or run over when a vehicle is reversing, but why are parents letting children play around cars in the first place, and secondly why isn't the parent ensuring they know where their child is at all times. I have seen children come in with these injuries all the time, they hardly ever get on tv or radio if it was a car, but if it was a 4wd you hear about it for days.

[yowie Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close yowie]

Re: Bull Bars Under Threat

There is more to hit than kangaroos - sheep, feral pigs, emus, cattle, horses, camels, donkeys, and a bloody big brahman bull that ran out from behind a bush and just in front of my bull bar. Would have caused some damage regardless to my vehicle, but the bar would have taken some of the impact.

Another thing to consider if you don't want to have cars fitted with bullbars in the city, where do you store the bullbars? Do you have a storage shed on the city fringe, where you stop, take your bullbar off and fit a normal bumper bar, pay to store the bullbar in the shed, then re-fit it on the way out of town? Some of you may think this is a strange comment, but this is what is wanted by some non-4WDrivers.

What happens with other vehicles that have front bars, such as work utes, work vans, Mack trucks, normal sedans? Will they be given the same considerations as 4WD's?

While it is not good for a pedestrian to be hit by a bullbar on a vehicle, if you have a need for a bullbar, then fit one to your vehicle. If you don't need one, don't fit one to your vehicle, and don't tell other drivers what they can and cannot do!

Yowie.

[Dakkas Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Dakkas]

Re: Bull Bars Under Threat

Those smart bars are crap, why have a bull bar on if it will still allow damage to the vehicle, lets look at your example, they still had damage after hitting the roo, I have hit a very large roo with a steel bullbar, this was in the middle of the night in the middle of nowhere, and I had no damage to the vehicle, this saved me being stranded in the middle of nowhere.

Firstly, they were doing 150kph - you'd have to expect some damage would you not? What do you think would have happened if they had a steel bar? I'd imagine they would have been stranded with a twisted chassis and messed up front. With the smart bar they were still mobile, and the damage only minor - also I realised by typo - the plastic lining of the wheels guards come loose - nothing more.

I have also hit a medium sized roo with an ARB steel bar - the bar itself bent, it was pushed back, twisting the chassis, piercing the radiator and popping both front tyres. The bar caused me to be stranded in the middle of nowhere and caused significantly more damage than if the vehicle was standard. Straight from the words of both panel beater and insurance assessor.

No bullbar will prevent all damage to a vehicle - unless you're lucky. The reality is no matter what bar you have, you are extremely likely to sustain some type of damage whether it be a busted light, small dent or whatever. The smartbar does a bloody fine job of preventing damage - moreso than a steel bar.

One thig you need to know about smart bars, is that you can not fit a winch to them, these two simple things (steel bullbar and winch) can be your life saver in the bush.

Incorrect. You can fit winches to them.

[lionel Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close lionel]

Re: Bull Bars Under Threat

Another thing to consider if you don't want to have cars fitted with bullbars in the city, where do you store the bullbars? Do you have a storage shed on the city fringe, where you stop, take your bullbar off and fit a normal bumper bar, pay to store the bullbar in the shed, then re-fit it on the way out of town? Some of you may think this is a strange comment, but this is what is wanted by some non-4WDrivers.

1. How is this different to some of the other big bulky accesories that we can add and remove eg rooftop tents, roof rack etc. If the bar had an easy removal mechanism would it take up that much room in your shed?
2. Is the situation you describe above preferable to nothing at all?

What happens with other vehicles that have front bars, such as work utes, work vans, Mack trucks, normal sedans? Will they be given the same considerations as 4WD's?

Excluding the Mack truck, yes, the original post/survey is about light vehicles which interact with pedestrians/cyclists, so any rules/bans/exclusion zones would apply equally to all

but if it was a 4wd you hear about it for days.

Yep, and it gets up my nose too!

[ntp Addicted PP Member Find all posts View Profile Close ntp]

Re: Bull Bars Under Threat

The point is, if said vehicle is wearing a bull bar, our pedestrian will likely suffer significantly more damage regardless of fault.

I am not sure this is correct. Variables will depend on: (1) size of person (2) size of vehicle (3) speed of vehicle (4) direction of vehicle (5) direction of person (7) age of person, just to cite a few.

Many pedestrians also get hit by trains - but you don't see Government moves being made to soften the front-ends of locomotives!

A smart car travelling at 80kph will just as easily injure a pedestrian as a car with a bull bar. Only difference is, both passengers in the smart car are also likely to be injured whereas those in the vehicle with the bull bar will probably survive uninjured.

This is a non-sense argument based on unscientific evidence and usually promoted by the Pedestrian Council whose membership, values and actual purpose needs to be seriously questioned.

[Steve M Addicted PP Member Find all posts View Profile Close Steve M]

Re: Bull Bars Under Threat

If mine has to come off they can pay me the $$$$$ it cost to put it on there !!!!!! Im presuming they are refering to new vehicles ????

[tassie tiger Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close tassie tiger]

Re: Bull Bars Under Threat

If mine has to come off they can pay me the $$$$$ it cost to put it on there !!!!!! Im presuming they are refering to new vehicles ????

It will be a design rule change. Same as airbags, crumple zones, seatbelts. Only on new cars.

It MAY be an issue if the vehicle was unregistered for a period of time and then you tried to re-register it, in some states.