Bull Bars Under Threat

[lionel Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close lionel]

Re: Bull Bars Under Threat

We can fight, but ultimately the regulators will regulate. They have already regulated for the backward leaning top bars we have today and you can bet there is more to come.

VSI 50 was never about banning lifts, it was about introducing regulations to manage the modifications that people make. This is not about banning bullbars, its about changing the way they are design so that they interact better with pedestrians.

Of all the reasons people quote here for fitting bars (animal strikes, fitting accessories, stopping carpark dings :roll: , improving approach angle) the only one that can't be solved easily is dealing with animal strikes (if the smart bar isn't your solution)

Would we not be better off getting proactive with the government, pointing out the economic benefits that we provide as a group (tourist $ spent locally in small isolated communities, primary produce, mining) and trying to get some funding to support research into a better solution? Because by introducing the regulations, the government is pushing the entire R&D cost onto the manufacturers and ultimately us, the end users.

To everyone who is calling for stricter bull bar laws in light of the tragedy in the crosswalks, may I offer this little tidbit: If bull bars kill pedestrians, then pencils misspell words, cars drive drunk, and spoons made Oprah fat! Remember: Hold the PEDESTRIAN accountable for their actions and keep laws off my front bumper!!!

If you want to hold pedestrian accountable for their actions, then it's only fair you are held accountable for your actions - (paraphrasing what people are saying) fitting a great big steel battering ram on the front of your car so that you can run kangaroos (or whatever) down at high speed without having to worry, and the additional consequences they cause when you hit a pedestrian, cyclist or another vehicle regardless of who is at fault.

I know everyone on here is an excellent driver, and never makes mistakes, or poor judgement calls, or takes a silly risk whilst on the road, so that's okay we can be trusted with bullbars. I think the regulations would be an improvement to project the people who get hit by the idiots who drive things like pajeros.... :roll:

[croozza Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close croozza]

Re: Bull Bars Under Threat

The had little damage because of the speed they were doing and they would have hit it mid bounce..

You're kidding right? Such a high speed is the reason why there was minimal damage? The impact would have been phenominal.

You can believe that if you like. Obviously I cannot change your thoughts on this.

Never believe the word of a insurance company or panel beater, they are only one step above car salesmen.

Didn't you just say below you have your vehicle checked after a prang? But you just aid "never believe the word of an insurance company or panel beater". Surely what they have to say is somewhat credibe. To say that a steel bullbar wouldn't cause more damage would be ignorant. I've seen it with my own two eyes.


I did not get this checked out by an insurance company or a panel beater. This was done by my mechanic, we measured everything twise to be sure and compated it to another vehicle and it was the same.

I have seen many scientific tests on bull bars and the steel bar out performs the other bars in protecting the vehicle and therefore the occupants, .

Perhaps you'd like to point out where this was? There has been many "scientific tests" on smart bars that prove it to offer better vehicle protection and protection of it's occupants - not only in wildlife strikes but motor vehicle accidents aswell.

Maybe you need to check out some videos that have been put up on the web, these are true scientific tests done in labs, it has since been scooped up by ARB to promote their bars, but besides that sprooking of them it is independant.

The plastic smart bar was the worst, reason being it flexes too much, allowing the obstuction to hit the vehicle, this causes damage to the vehicle, then the bar returns to its correct form, so your bull bar will survive but not the car, .

With respect, this just shows your ignorance - this is not the case at all. Go up and grab a smart bar and try and bend it - you won't be able to because they are quite solid. They require a decent impact before they'll move - and once they do they'll only move to an extent (which is minimal) where they actually become firm and wont move anymore - they certainly don't flex back into your vehicle. On this same note, steel bar's move, they shake around and have a small amount of "give", also as per my previous post/s - I had an ARB steel bar roll back into the vehicle and pierce the radiator, pop both tyres and twist the chassis amongst other things. The bar itself actually bent. A smart bar would have kept me mobile in the same situation.


The bar was not the reason the tyres popped or the chassis twisted.

I would have loved to have seen your car after hitting the roo if you had a smart bar, I bet my left nut, that you would have had alot mor damage to the vehicle and possably to you.

I've hit a few over the years in a vehicle with a smart bar. Not anything to skite about, they were all average size roo's and I was only doing around 80kph on impact - so not exactly the high end of the spectrum, but realistic driving all the same. Never any damage.

Damage will depend on the point of impact, and at what part of the bounce the roo was at.
I have seen many of these plastic bars peel open under impact, I would not trust them nor recommend them.

Yes and no on the winch actually, you can fit a winch, but you shouldn't, as the bar flexes too much allowing the winch to flex and break..

Again that's incorrect. Have a look at the metal bracket that winches are fitted to. There is no flex whatsoever when winching.


The bar still flexes under load when winching unlike steel.

Another thing with a steel bar, I had a head on with some wanker that was cutting corners on the way to O'Rielleys (in the gold coast hinterland), this is a very windy road, I saw him coming and stopped, but he couldn't, we hit, so I backed back down off of his bonnet, looked at the front of my vehicle, no damage, looked at his again, write off. He had no insurance either. I had the vehicle checked out, found no damage.
So you cannot say a steel bull bar will twist or bend chassis.

If what you say is 100% true - then that is nothing more than luck. How do you know a smartbar would have been any different? Again to say a steel bullbar won't bent or twist your chassis is very ignorant. It can and does happen.

At the end of the day you believe what you want to, I'm not trying to convert you, I'm just presenting the real-life facts. You're obviously a "steel is the only way to go" man and haven't accepted that newer technology is out there and does the same, if not better job than older materials such as steel.


The smart bar would have flexed allowing the other vehicle to damage my radiator, lights ect, with the steel bar this did not happen.

I was once like you though, I thought steel was the bee's knee's, and thought the smartbars were rubbish. I got a new work vehicle that had a smart bar and I was a convert after actually driving with one fitted one myself and seeing the real life effectiveness of it - so I think my comments are a little more credible than "I've seen scientific tests......"

Like you I have had real world experiences and will not sacrifice my safety nor the safety of my passengers with an inferior product like the smart bar, I really believe that I and you will hit more animals and vehicles than pedestrians.

[Steve M Addicted PP Member Find all posts View Profile Close Steve M]

Re: Bull Bars Under Threat

I did give you an honest answer in my last rely to you. the first 7 words were """Obviously I would rather a plastic bar"""Regards Steve M

Remember: Hold the PEDESTRIAN accountable for their actions and keep laws off my front bumper!!!

This is the attitude that gives the 4x4 community a very bad image.

FlyNdrive,
Regarding these pedestrians which you so insensitively say need to be accountable for their actions etc - stop and bare a thought as to who these pedestrians are - it's you and me, our families and friends. We are pedestrians more than we are drivers. Also, Just because a pedestrian is hit doesn't mean they are necessarily at fault.

Besides, how would you feel if you actually hit and killed somone - particularly a kid - whether it was their fault or not. Imagine sitting in coroners court and listening to the fact that the bullbar on the front of your car was the main cause of death because the bullbar busted the kids skull like a flat soccerball. People often cling to the arguement "if they get hit, they'll be killed anyway whether there is a bullbar or not", well as I said in a previous post - metal is much harder than a plastic bumper - a collision with a pedestrian at 30-60kph, you are the pedestrian - which would you rather be hit with? A car with a bullbar or a stock standard car with a plastic bumper? lets see if anyone wants to answer this one honestly.... (no one has yet).

[croozza Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close croozza]

Re: Bull Bars Under Threat

Remember: Hold the PEDESTRIAN accountable for their actions and keep laws off my front bumper!!!

This is the attitude that gives the 4x4 community a very bad image.

FlyNdrive,
Regarding these pedestrians which you so insensitively say need to be accountable for their actions etc - stop and bare a thought as to who these pedestrians are - it's you and me, our families and friends. We are pedestrians more than we are drivers. Also, Just because a pedestrian is hit doesn't mean they are necessarily at fault.

Besides, how would you feel if you actually hit and killed somone - particularly a kid - whether it was their fault or not. Imagine sitting in coroners court and listening to the fact that the bullbar on the front of your car was the main cause of death because the bullbar busted the kids skull like a flat soccerball. People often cling to the arguement "if they get hit, they'll be killed anyway whether there is a bullbar or not", well as I said in a previous post - metal is much harder than a plastic bumper - a collision with a pedestrian at 30-60kph, you are the pedestrian - which would you rather be hit with? A car with a bullbar or a stock standard car with a plastic bumper? lets see if anyone wants to answer this one honestly.... (no one has yet).

How is this attitude giving 4wders a bad image, everybody should be held accountable for their own actions, If I walk out onto the road without looking is it the drivers fault if they hit me, regardless if the have a bullbar or not. NO it would be the padestrians fault (me) not the driver.
I would feel bad if I hit a padestrian regardless of what I was driving at the time, (lets not go down the kid argument), as bad as this may sound, I would rather kill a padestrian than give them brain damage or make them a paraplegic so that they need 24/7 care for the rest of their life, as it would be putting more stress and financial pressure on the family of the victim, as callas as that may sound, you have a look at the respite centres around the country and see what everyone is going through.
As for your question, as silly as it is, I'm sure everybody would say they would not rather be hit by any vehicle, and nobdy is going out as padestrians to be hit by a vehicle, nor is any driver going out to hit padestrians.
Are we going to put plastic bullbars on trucks, I'm sure if I am going to be hit by a truck I am pretty much rooted.
I am sure it comes down to the weight and size of the vehicle, if a big object hits a small object the small object is always going to come out second best.

[yowie Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close yowie]

Re: Bull Bars Under Threat

Don't let bull bars be banned. Fill out the survey only takes 2mins and a $1 gets donated to the Royal Flying Doctors Service for each one completed.

More info http://www.aaaa.com.au/4wd/news.asp?id=47


Survey http://www.surveygizmo.com/s3/317270/Bu ... der-Threat

Seththecursed,

You really are cursed, look at the bloody hornet's nest you stirred up! :mrgreen:

Yowie.

[croozza Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close croozza]

Re: Bull Bars Under Threat

Don't let bull bars be banned. Fill out the survey only takes 2mins and a $1 gets donated to the Royal Flying Doctors Service for each one completed.

More info http://www.aaaa.com.au/4wd/news.asp?id=47


Survey http://www.surveygizmo.com/s3/317270/Bu ... der-Threat

Seththecursed,

You really are cursed, look at the bloody hornet's nest you stirred up! :mrgreen:

Yowie.

Not a nornets nest yowie, just everyones opinion, unfortunately the bleeding hearts brigade are the ones to blame here. People need to held accountable for their own actions, no matter if they are intoxicated or not, if you let yourself be intoxicated and get hit, then it is your fault for allowing yourself to be like that in the first place. There are many senarios and reasons why people get hit by cars, it is about time they look for that reason instead of blaming the end cause.

[Dakkas Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Dakkas]

Re: Bull Bars Under Threat

Maybe you need to check out some videos that have been put up on the web, these are true scientific tests done in labs, it has since been scooped up by ARB to promote their bars, but besides that sprooking of them it is independant..

Oh you mean your "scientific test" argument is a video on the net? And it's used to advertise by their competition? Oh then it must be true and unbiased :roll:

The bar was not the reason the tyres popped or the chassis twisted..

So the edges/wings of the bullbar pushing back into the tyres had nothing to do with popping my tyres? And the bullbar preventing the natural crumple zone from working and having a hard strike at the front (which was transmitted through the chassis) had nothing to do with the chassis twisting?

The bar still flexes under load when winching unlike steel.

Steel does flex.

I've never said steel bars are crap, they are effective, but smartbars are new technology and at the very least they do work just as well. You've obviously had experience with steel bars but I question your experience with smartbars due to your one-sided views and grossly inaccurate comments. I've had first hand and experience with both. Smartbars are not an inferior product at all.

[croozza Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close croozza]

Re: Bull Bars Under Threat

All scientific tests are recorded on video, most of these tests are then posted on the web, I was there at one of these recordings, Yes ARB have obtained a copy of one of these tests just to promote their product, who wouldn't, even car manufacturers do this.
Are you saying just because it is posted on the web it is not accurate, so all those ANCAP tests that someone has posted on youtube are wrong?.

I'm all for improvements in safety though technology, but you need to think about the safety of the occupants of the vehicle too. We have different driving conditions to those in Europe so a blanket rule should not be applied worldwide.

I noticed you did not comment regarding either killing someone or sending them to respite centres, is that because what I said is true. I'm not having a go at you so please don't think or feel that way, I strongly believe pedestrians should be held accountable for there own actions just like drivers are, the driver is not always the blame for a pedestrian being hit.

[Seththecursed Member Find all posts View Profile Close Seththecursed]

Re: Bull Bars Under Threat

Don't let bull bars be banned. Fill out the survey only takes 2mins and a $1 gets donated to the Royal Flying Doctors Service for each one completed.

More info http://www.aaaa.com.au/4wd/news.asp?id=47


Survey http://www.surveygizmo.com/s3/317270/Bu ... der-Threat

Seththecursed,

You really are cursed, look at the bloody hornet's nest you stirred up! :mrgreen:

Yowie.

Indeed this thread has stirred up some colourful discussions. Its good to see we PP members can have a healthy debate without it turning into a flaming match or childish name calling.

[Steve M Addicted PP Member Find all posts View Profile Close Steve M]

Re: Bull Bars Under Threat

Aggree with you there Seththecursed, "" childish name calling"" have seen this on many forums but as you said good to see it hasnt reached that level with PP members/visitors, everyone entitalled to their opinions on all things, most will agree to disagree at the end of the day on certain things. I'll be keeping my steel ARB winch bar on this one anyway. Maybe with the next vehicle if it doesnt have bar fitted already then I will check out all the options and different types of bars available, will keep an open mind. I dont run a winch so maybe a smart bar if offering the same level of safety and strength and spots for lights, arial, sand flag, etc and is suitable for off road then maybe will be the way in the future..Regards Steve M

Don't let bull bars be banned. Fill out the survey only takes 2mins and a $1 gets donated to the Royal Flying Doctors Service for each one completed.

More info http://www.aaaa.com.au/4wd/news.asp?id=47


Survey http://www.surveygizmo.com/s3/317270/Bu ... der-Threat

Seththecursed,

You really are cursed, look at the bloody hornet's nest you stirred up! :mrgreen:

Yowie.

Indeed this thread has stirred up some colourful discussions. Its good to see we PP members can have a healthy debate without it turning into a flaming match or childish name calling.

[AJ120 Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close AJ120]

Re: Bull Bars Under Threat

I think that the "smart bars" would get a much better reception from the 4Wdriving community if they weren't so F&*$ing UGLY. Nobody has admitted it on this thread but there is no doubt that looks play a major part in people decided to fit or not a bullbar, as well as what type.

As to the question with being hit by a vehicle with a bullbar or not, I have no fear of being killed, however nearly being killed and ending up in a wheelchair and being fed through a tube scares the hell out me, if i have to be hit by a vehicle, make sure its done right so i don't live to regret it.

Cheers Andrew

[Dakkas Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Dakkas]

Re: Bull Bars Under Threat

All scientific tests are recorded on video, most of these tests are then posted on the web, I was there at one of these recordings, Yes ARB have obtained a copy of one of these tests just to promote their product, who wouldn't, even car manufacturers do this.
Are you saying just because it is posted on the web it is not accurate, so all those ANCAP tests that someone has posted on youtube are wrong?.
.

What I'm saying is that you can't believe everything you see on the net. These "scientific" tests are often not independant either. Perhaps for the sake of the debate, you could indicate what was said as to why the smart bar is not safe and steel is?

On the flip side I've seen video's and articles about the smart bars being much safer than steel - I dismissed these anyhow as that was when I thought smartbars were crap and steel was the only way to go. However, like I said, once I started driving vehicles fitted with smartbars I realised that they were actually really good. After a few roo hits and one of our fleet being in a prang I realised they were really effective.

I noticed you did not comment regarding either killing someone or sending them to respite centres, is that because what I said is true. I'm not having a go at you so please don't think or feel that way, I strongly believe pedestrians should be held accountable for there own actions just like drivers are, the driver is not always the blame for a pedestrian being hit.

Firstly, I know I'd rather be killed than being severly disabled and screwed up. You and I can't really speak for others and what they'd prefer - however, that's not the basis for what what we are discussing. But while we are discussing it I'm sure we'd both agree that if anyone was hit, then we'd hope they'd only walk away with minor injuries rather than death/significant injuries.

Anyway, we are discussing minimal impact on pedestrians should the unthinkable happen and they be struck and how a bullbar will affect the situation.. Think at 50kph pedestrian is hit. A plastic standard 4x4 bumper is much better to being hit by than a steel bullbar. It may mean the difference between life or death - or, as you say it might mean the difference between being seriously injured and maimed or a few minor injuries of which you can recover.

Sure statistics aren't available to prove bullbars are more likely to kill - there doesnt' have to be, bullbars are more dangerous to pedestrians. Those that suggest otherwise, answer my question above - which would you rather be hit by? a car with a bullbar or a stock one with a plastic bumper?

As for pedestrians being accountable - I agree, but shit happens, kids run on roads, old people aren't as aware of surroundings etc and believe it or not - VEHICLES are often at fault too. Who's run red lights before? Who's exceeded the speed limit? Who's driven while on a mobile phone? Who's driven while tired? ALL OF YOU WOULD HAVE AT ONE TIME OR ANOTHER. None of us are perfect or perfect drivers.

The comment I made above about why the 4x4 community has a bad rep is because people are often arrogant and straight away blame "stupid pedestrians". Pedestrian's aren't always at fault. What about the "stupid motorist" (of which we are all are from time to time - albeit some more regularly than others).

The redneck self indulgent comments about pedestrians is what damages the 4x4 community.

[croozza Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close croozza]

Re: Bull Bars Under Threat

All scientific tests are recorded on video, most of these tests are then posted on the web, I was there at one of these recordings, Yes ARB have obtained a copy of one of these tests just to promote their product, who wouldn't, even car manufacturers do this.
Are you saying just because it is posted on the web it is not accurate, so all those ANCAP tests that someone has posted on youtube are wrong?.
.

What I'm saying is that you can't believe everything you see on the net. These "scientific" tests are often not independant either. Perhaps for the sake of the debate, you could indicate what was said as to why the smart bar is not safe and steel is?

On the flip side I've seen video's and articles about the smart bars being much safer than steel - I dismissed these anyhow as that was when I thought smartbars were crap and steel was the only way to go. However, like I said, once I started driving vehicles fitted with smartbars I realised that they were actually really good. After a few roo hits and one of our fleet being in a prang I realised they were really effective.

I noticed you did not comment regarding either killing someone or sending them to respite centres, is that because what I said is true. I'm not having a go at you so please don't think or feel that way, I strongly believe pedestrians should be held accountable for there own actions just like drivers are, the driver is not always the blame for a pedestrian being hit.

Firstly, I know I'd rather be killed than being severly disabled and screwed up. You and I can't really speak for others and what they'd prefer - however, that's not the basis for what what we are discussing. But while we are discussing it I'm sure we'd both agree that if anyone was hit, then we'd hope they'd only walk away with minor injuries rather than death/significant injuries.

Anyway, we are discussing minimal impact on pedestrians should the unthinkable happen and they be struck and how a bullbar will affect the situation.. Think at 50kph pedestrian is hit. A plastic standard 4x4 bumper is much better to being hit by than a steel bullbar. It may mean the difference between life or death - or, as you say it might mean the difference between being seriously injured and maimed or a few minor injuries of which you can recover.

Sure statistics aren't available to prove bullbars are more likely to kill - there doesnt' have to be, bullbars are more dangerous to pedestrians. Those that suggest otherwise, answer my question above - which would you rather be hit by? a car with a bullbar or a stock one with a plastic bumper?[/quote]

Sorry but pedestrians are more dangerous to them selves than bullbars to pedestrians.
Bandaid solutions have never worked, and never will.
It is a road, vehicles travel on these and at speed.

You may have missed that I did state that I was at one of these recordings, and it was independant, not one of the manufacterers knew of the test until the results were shown, these test were all done on proper test rigs with the same object hitting the bar, the plastic smart bar was the only bar that allowed the object to breach through the defences because of the flex in the plastic, which then sprung back into its previous form, so basicall the bull bar will live on but not the vehicle.

[Matty80 Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close Matty80]

Re: Bull Bars Under Threat

Interesting reading there fellas, glad we've kept it all dignified and respectable so far!

[baldryk Lurker Find all posts View Profile Close baldryk]

Re: Bull Bars Under Threat

Completely agree with those that say don't blame the pedestrian. Towns aren't freeways, they're for people to live in. Kids have absolutely so sense of speed, consequence or risk, so the driver has a major responsibility.

About 200 pedestrians are killed/year, with considerable thousand injured. Most occur in cities and towns at speed limits 60kmh or less. It's completely reasonable for standards to require all vehicles to be as safe as possible.

There are plenty of options, eg: Prominantly publish pedestrian safety ratings for vehicles and to promote that as a reason for buying a car (per the ANCAP rating). Innovate with design, just as the euro manufacturers are with the highest rated 2WDs. Incentivise not having a bullbar for exclusively metro used cars.

If the 4WD community just digs in and tries to defend the indefensible, then rising standards will just bypass it. It needs to be part of the solution.