diesel rattle in D4D Prado

[wooley Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close wooley]

Thanks for the offer Wooley, but I think I have this one sorted. On a related topic though, if you are interested I can point you in the direction of some cheap fertiliser around here

Cheers Andrew

Nah I don't need any more bullshit around my neck of the woods mate haha

[DocK Member Find all posts View Profile Close DocK]

I am not sure that the bonnet scoop idea or front mount intercooler will solve the problem at all. I had an injector problem very early on, about 10,000kms and the scoop went on at about 20,000km. Replaced the injectors at 60,000kms. What will be interesting now is to see if the new injectors last longer with the scoop in place. But I have also added a intercooler fan and water misting to really keep the temp on top of the D4D down. Will it make a difference to injector life - really dont think so, but it does help the performance.
Cheers
DocK

[AJ120 Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close AJ120]

Ok Roo you want me to follow through, then fine. I am simply talking in this thread that a figure of 10% of D4D's needing repairs worth more than 10 grand being a load of BS in my opinion. You provided the stats to back up your claim on this figure and now I am going to explain why your figures and your deduction of 10% are incorrect, its simple high school mathematics, not rocket science. I thought I would give you the chance to alter your numbers but seems you would rather just fly of the handle and tell me I am an idiot for not following your every word of advise.

So lets simplify this and just look at your direct experience Roo, 32 vehicles with injector issues have been through your workshop, and 3 of them required work costing over 10 grand and from this you have deduced 10%, sorry but if you handed up that answer to your maths teacher you would get a big fat fail!

You are assuming in those figures that 100% of all D4D's have injector issues, which is incorrect; I know because I own one that has no issues. So the question then is how many other D4D's are there out there without injector issues that have not been through your workshop, Who knows is the only answer, but I bet its a lot. So the figure of 10% you quoted using nothing but your own data is mathematically incorrect, the only question is how wrong are you.

If you want to work out statistically then you need a large sample group, so lets look at PP as a large group of D4D owners. OK now how many on this forum have had issues costing over 10 grand, a few, not sure how many but a few. OK now statistics need to have anomolies removed, so anyone who joined the forum because they had a major injector issue, such as Sharon needs to be ignored, the reason they need to be ignored is because there are a number of other "Sharons" out there that have not joined because they have not had an issue, hope that makes sense.

So how many does that leave, not sure but still a couple at least that joined PP before they had issues and went on to have a major failure. Now lets analyse those that fall into this category, how many of them have a chip fitted? Whilst the chip manufacturers will tell you its not the chip I have my doubts, I would put a large ? next to those. Of those that didn't have a chip fitted is there some other factor, for example they actually did have a chip fitted but removed it so as to not affect warranty and deny ever fitting it, or maybe they accidentally put in some petrol by mistake, or they drove for years with badly rattling injectors and if they had done the preventative maintenance the bill would have been substantially less............ we will never know the answers to these questions so lets just assume all of these were the fault of the design, how many are we talking about? I can't be bothered reading through thousands of posts to check but I can assure its not that many.

Now compare how many people who joined PP and subsequently had a major catastrophic failure against the number of members who own a D4D, if you find a figure even remotely close to 10% I'll eat my hat.

Sorry Roo but if you continue to whip up this hysteria by posting rubbish like your 10% stat I will continue to take you to task. This forum is only as good as the info contained within it, and if high profile members make claims that are rubbish and no one takes them to task over it then the forum is a useless tool.


Cheers Andrew

[mjrandom Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close mjrandom]

Some time ago I tried to get a spreadsheet started to summarise this. No one replied. I know Chippy's survey is out there but it really doesn't say much. Happy to set populate a spreadsheet if people want to send me the information.

I have just had a google and there is no way there is enough data out there to suggest a repair rate of 0.1% let alone anything higher and yet of the three people I know with D4Ds (other than me) all 3 have had injector problems. By comparison if you do the same exercise for the 4wd with the noted hand grenade engine there are many many pages.

I don't believe there is a generic problem that will affect all D4Ds nor that the cause is clear cut. Sorry Roo but I cannot agree that the intercooler locks in huge temperatures. It would be nice to have some data to say one way or the other. I can see cause and effect on the injector seals plus the OS service bulletins support that for motors built pre Oct 2007. Doesn't explain why there are reports of 'old' seals turning up in new engines. Again don't believe it is old stock being recycled, when I worked for a company that made machinery any such changes were identified with do not use/scrap existing stock/use only new parts.

My Toyota service manager, in whom I have great trust, happily talked with me for an hour last week when I booked the 120 in for its 130k service. As he, sadly, is leaving Toyota he had no need to hide anything and his statistics for repairs indicate very few with problems. He did say some had poor fuel still in the tanks (algae and dirt) and others had missed plenty of services. Again all this complicates the issue. At a previous service he said that my D4D wasn't as quiet as others but also demonstrated a pre delivery brand spankers 150 that was way noisier.

I am in the position where I need to think about whether to keep the Prado beyond my usual 150,000km so this service I will get the injector codes and also the inlet screen will be inspected. I do have extended warranty until 150,000km so I need to make a decision based on facts before then.

[ntp Addicted PP Member Find all posts View Profile Close ntp]

Toyota will tell you not to believe everything you read on the internet, that is sooooo true. It takes a lot of reading and effort to sort the wheat from the chaff, especially on this topic.

What do you mean everything on the Internet is not accurate? And are you saying that forum posts contain an accurate balance of views and do not mostly highlight for comment negatives and/or problems?

now I am going to explain why your figures and your deduction of 10% are incorrect, its simple high school mathematics, not rocket science.

From my assessment, when you take into account all the posts on the forum, about 10% appear negative or BS, give or take a few percent... so I am not sure of your logic here.

I don't mind having an argument with people that are educated about the subject but you two I doubt whether you have even had the rocker cover off your vehicles, let alone changing out the injectors. If you want to discredit me and the things I write, at least know what you are talking about.

I'd be happy to explain this further but have never worked on a calculator before or removed the cover off one. So this is based simply on my own experiences and from talking to a few mates.

That is the end of my views on this subject.

[Bushbasher Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close Bushbasher]

Gday Bushbasher
I really don't want to go off topic on this thread and i am "REALY" trying to keep in one area here but if pushed hard enough i would be happy to give my thoughts on this in more detail.
"MAYBE!".... Not that it is writing anywhere on this forum that i could drag up! that be maybe there has been where the fuel rail sensor/air MAF sensor have been manipulated and corrigulated so that the ECU wouldn't have a clue that fuel rail pressures have been elevate and a shim to fuel relief valve to stop rail pressures being dumped and that what is really going on given that if "MAYBE "ANY" of the Toyota safety features have been disarmed??? (Manipulated outside of Toyotas programmed safety parameters) I just don't know??? But if "ANY" of the mentioned had been carried out then that would be a guaranteed warranty void full stop!!... (There is a story behind noisy injectors but i never explained that one anywhere on this forum!) But that would have to be proven given that there is no proof of that!
We all know that Toyota by law can not stop mods being carried out to the vehicle but if "ANY" manipulation of the inbuilt safety features are changed in any way they "CAN" and would backed by the law void your warranty if an engine failure was to happen!
If all TOYOTA safety features are un-tampered with then i do believe that the engine management system can identify when perimeters are crossed and can protect its self accordingly and even throw you a CEL with a choice of codes and if it was to be a really bad error with the mapped parameters it would be even kind enough to throw in a limp mode to make sure no fatal engine damager to happen But things would have to get really bad for that to happen!
Cheers

Sorry, but based on my experience you are incorrect in thinking that there are built-in safety systems. My car was stock, regularly serviced every 6 months by the same dealer, as well as 5,000km oil change in between services by me and serviced 4 weeks before it went bang at 73,000km. There was no dirty fuel, no error codes, no other warning lamps, no rattling, no over heating, no excessive oil use and no excessive fuel use right up to the point that it detonated the pistons. As long as that puppy was turning over the ECM will continue to deliver fuel as demanded by the engine given the operating environment. I know enough about closed loop fuel injection systems to understand how it all works. If what you say was correct then Toyota would have built in a system to recognize that the injectors (2) were way out of spec and should have shut the engine down to prevent the fatal damage that occured. Unfortunately, they don't.

[mjrandom Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close mjrandom]

An update for those interested. Two of my four injectors are out of range. Surprise it is #2 and #4. Further investigation necessary so back to the doctor next week.

It is very important to note: My Prado does not have the death rattle or is especially loud. It has gotten no noisier in the last year +. It does not blow grey or white smoke (just the usual black smoke when spooling up the turbo from low revs). Does not run roughly or idle erratically. When the valve clearances were checked last service the galleries and head were considered very clean with no evidence of injector seal blowby. No catch can is fitted. No chip (don't believe in piggy back chips). Stock exhaust.

There was some talk that as the injector feedback values would not be checked dead cold there may be some discrepencies. I can understand that with a warm engine it is a different spray regime but would have thought they would still show good or bad. And bad would simply be worse cold.

Now the fun starts. I have extended warranty and the original injectors are not the latest and greatest but attempt number 2 out of 3 by Toyota to get it right. Will be interesting to see what is suggested / offered.

Bit disappointed that the sump strainer wasn't inspected as the camera in the workshop didn't fit so I might have to think outside the circle for that.

Roo would you care to offer an opinion on the result? I have read here that a number of people have had individual injectors replaced but I am not keen to have two different parts in this engine.

For the record I have changed the fuel filter under the bonnet every service and the one between tanks every second service up to 80,000km where only the tank filter was changed every service due to concerns about damage to the under bonnet filter. Both filters changed this service at my request. No signs of nastiness in the cursory inspection of the filters.

I suspect the next step is to leave the car with the service people to cool down and a further check done dead cold. Then if the injectors are still our of range will negotiate for a full set of new parts across the top. Will know more this afternoon when the nightshift supervisor comes in.

I did have the ranges checked some time ago and while I don't have the figures to hand I am pretty sure #1 and #3 are showing better values now (0.7 & 0.5) than then!

Michael

[Bushbasher Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close Bushbasher]

They will only replace those injectors that they deem are out of range so you will have to pick up the bill for the other 2 injectors plus associated fuel pipes. And all this will be at Toyota price of around $1100 per injector unless you supply the injectors from another source. When they did my engine, they lied to me about replacing all 4 injectors and when I picked it up after the repairs they told me only 2 injectors were replaced under extended warranty as the other 2 were still within spec. I was never given the opportunity to get the other 2 replaced at my cost which I would have prefered although 11,000km later after engine rebuild all seems to be running smooth. Getting injector values check at next service (90,000).

[Shifter Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Shifter]

G'day all,
I am new here and have been following this and other threads regarding the "death rattle" with great interest. I am a mechanical engineer (marine) by profession and certainly understand the mechanics of the content of the threads. One thing puzzles me a little - what is meant by "checking injector values"?? is this some kind of electronic check or a meachnical test as would be carried out on a fuel valve (injector)?

I have purchased a 120 GXL D4D Auto, 2007, 85,000km's and am more than happy with it, thus far. I will be fitting a couple of mods, namely additional fuel filter (Racor 230) and a Provent 200, for extended reliability.

[Lewie Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Lewie]

I have had a weird rattle coming from the engine bay of my 2005 Toyota Prado. I noticed it probably a couple of months ago and didn’t think much of it, but I recently decided to investigate it a bit more to see where its coming from. It sounds like its coming from inside the motor somewhere, and it almost sounds like there is something inside the engine block like a bolt or possibly even a tool of some sort that just bouncing around with the vibration of the engine. Does anyone have any idea what this could be? Obviously I’m going to take it to my Toyota dealer when I can but before I do, I need to drive it this weekend and I want to know if it’s safe to do so, keeping in mind this rattle has been around for a couple of months.

This is what I posted on another thread because im pretty sure I dont have the D4D. Does the rattle sound like what I described????

[Riv39 Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close Riv39]

G'day all,
I am new here and have been following this and other threads regarding the "death rattle" with great interest. I am a mechanical engineer (marine) by profession and certainly understand the mechanics of the content of the threads. One thing puzzles me a little - what is meant by "checking injector values"?? is this some kind of electronic check or a meachnical test as would be carried out on a fuel valve (injector)?
I have purchased a 120 GXL D4D Auto, 2007, 85,000km's and am more than happy with it, thus far. I will be fitting a couple of mods, namely additional fuel filter (Racor 230) and a Provent 200, for extended reliability.

G'day shifter and welcome. The check is done electronically.

[Shifter Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Shifter]

Riv39 thank you for the welcome.

Could someone elaborate on what exactly is done electronically to check the calibration or injection quality of the injectors? What is actually measured?

Very interested.

[mjrandom Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close mjrandom]

Techs use a scan tool to check the feedback values of the injectors. Toyota or diesel place can do it.

[Shifter Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Shifter]

Mjrandom,

Thank you for your reply, however, are these feedback values from the actuation solenoid, pressure recorded from the injector under injection or some other parameter?

Presumably then, these injectors are not "pop" tested on a bench jerk type pump or some other injector testing device?

Thanks.

[mjrandom Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close mjrandom]

Roo can answer you in more detail. Or it is probably on google. The injectors are tested in situ. My understanding is that a testing 'regime' is run and the scan tool reads feedback. Those feedback values are then the data. Whether that is pressure decay, timing etc I do not know.