diesel rattle in D4D Prado

[ntp Addicted PP Member Find all posts View Profile Close ntp]

Also does anyone know the author of this survey I found on the net about the 120 as I haven't found any reference to it on PP?
http://www.esurveyspro.com/Survey.as...b-b1bd3a7f5d20

I think Chippy created it in response to the concerns being expressed on this forum. See: D4D rattle - Survey and results - refer to D4D rattle thread

[matt150 Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close matt150]

I think Chippy created it in response to the concerns being expressed on this forum. See: D4D rattle - Survey and results - refer to D4D rattle thread

LOL That sounds like my old mate Chippy !

[Gone Bush Lurker Find all posts View Profile Close Gone Bush]

Thanks Roo for clarifying this. I wonder if Chippy had many respond to his survey and what were his results?


Sam

[AJ120 Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close AJ120]

OK, let's look at some statistics. There are some people that are always going on about the numbers so let's do it.
So in the best months in 2011 there was 4300 and 996 Prados sold. I got these figures from Drive's website. So let's be conservative on how many diesel models sell out of that, say 30%. So that's about 1,590 units sold a month all up on the 1KD-FTV engines.
Per year that is a total of 19,080 units sold of vehicles with the 1KD-FTV installed in it in Australia. So let's times that by how many years it has been released in Australia, 6 years. Give or take a few months but the conservative figure of diesel model sales makes up for that.
6 years equals 114,480 units out there. Now based upon my figures, Sharons and some other people that I know, say it's about 10% of vehicles that have failures above the $10,000.00 figure. Mine as now been 3 out of 32 and Sharon has surveyed 20 people with 3 having big problems, and that's including her problems. So I reckon around the 10% figure for repairs over $10,000.00 is fair.
So that's 11,448 units that have already had problems, or will have problems in the future amounting to the above figure being over $10,000.00. That's a pretty big repair bill there being $114,480,000.00 for the Australian fleet just on these types of failures.
Now, to be fair, that 10% figure is based on a very small part of the diesel repair industry and what Sharon is saying there. In my opinion that 10% figure would be about right give or take maybe 2%. It's still going to be quite high for the Australian fleet repair bill, for these types of repairs. I am not saying all this money is Toyota Australia's fault, my balls are not that big and I must point out that I am not on some crusade here either. I think it will be around that figure by the end close of the 1KD-FTV when it finally retires that is. Whatever causes the problems in the first place that will be up to history and the person or people that are writing it, as always.
I heard a true story the other day, and I wouldn't have believed it if it was from any other source. A Hiace fan with almost the same engine in it, had done 700,000 kms on one set of injectors with no failures. It was used for transporting people to and from the airport. I have seen and heard of other vahicles with high kms on them as well.
Do I think it's worth the risk? Well, hell ye if your rich and can afford a very expensive repair bill, why not.
Sadly no, if you are like a lot of us, just paying the bills from week to week. If you are in this larger proportion of the population here in Australia, you will have to do the maintenance that has been already discussed on this website, to try and avoid this happening.
See there's the other side of the coin here, the number of out right failures at pretty low kms too.
For you Sharon, I think you will win your case and open this right up so that finally it will be in view of the mainstream public. These problems that so many have already had, and have remained hidden from the eyes of so many about how Toyota Australia has handled a lot of these cases and claims.
Go get them Sharon, the Roo.

So am I the only one that can see the fundamental problem with coming to the conclusion of 10% of D4D's having catastrophic failure or am I the only one willing to question the Roo?

Sorry but your methodology for coming to this figure is seriously flawed Roo, I would suggest it is not even remotely close to 10%.

Come on, lots of smart guys on here, surely someone else can point out the flaw in the Maths! I don't even need to add any other info, the figures that Roo has quoted don't even add up.


Cheers Andrew

[butane8 Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close butane8]

just to be a pain in ya arse, boys , if you look what the guests/members, on "pradopoint.com" are worried about

, and ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,big hits show the rattle in the d4d has got hilux owners worried too,
you can see it is a concern to the owners of the faithful " toyota " name , how can this be?

this comes down to the pain in the arse bit , ...... guess , as I use to here them say ... " it was a monday car "

i cant help you blokes out.. but feel your pain ....sigh ... signed 1GR-FE

[SWR Banned Find all posts View Profile Close SWR]

Gday Roo
I think you wont like me for this but i am only sharing my thoughts of opinion here!
I think i see things a little different to yours!... My thoughts and opinions only so hear me out and then let the debate begin!
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QUOTE ##########: The D9 comment. Interestingly enough, the use of the name Prado Point at the top of the survey there, is a breach of copyright if the author didn't get permission to use that name.
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ANSWER skywalkerrun: If there is a direct link to the source there can be no stealing or copying. (No different to going or sending someone to a Toyota web-sight or another forum!).... Is very informative though! Lol
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QUOTE ##########: The failures have been uncommon in the 150 models simple for one reason. It has a front mounted intercooler instead of the top mounted intercooler.
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ANSWER skywalkerrun: In my opinion i believe one of the main reasons for none reported failures on the 150 series as yet maybe because they haven't been out as long as the 120 series and a lot of the 120 series have the old seating washers and injectors that have yet to be replaced!... Maybe!.. there "is" still "a lot" out there running just fine!
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Also! I personally do believe the "main" reason for the turbo intercooler being re-located to the front of the vehicle was for that good old ever taunting "Emissions laws" in order to help "reduce" the heat saturation from the engine bay as much as possible on the intercooler which in turn helps to reduce air intake temps to reduce combustion temps (Nox).... Once the vehicle is moving air flow is good and engine bay temps drop and so does air-intake temps.
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EG 1: There would be less heat saturation exposure to the intercooler at the front of the vehicle than there is sitting on top of the engine under the bonnet! Especially if stuck in traffic and the engine coolant thermostat has opened/radiator is having heat pulled from it (84c) stuck in traffic with minimum air flow under bonnet (Made worse with the A/C condenser also generating heat exposure the front of the coolant radiator) or in low gear revving the nuts off it under full load slowly climbing a hill!... That's "A lot" of engine bay heat being absorbed by a intercooler that relies on cool air to cool combustion temps!.. And that's not including the heat that is being generated by the turbo and exhaust which also gets trapped under the bonnet with low air flow, so wouldn't it be fair to say that it would be smarter to move the intercooler to reduce this heat exposure/Make emissions more efficient, and not to stop injector failure? Its works fine for the 120 series where it is but the 150 series has to abide to the euro 5 emissions laws but 120 to the euro 3-4.
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EG 2: The fuel that passes through the fuel injector then returns to the fuel tank via both the bleed off port and common rail pressure relief valve so can we say that this a loan acts as a liquid cooler for the injector and the injector is also cooled by the engine oil that is passed around fuel injector and drained off from it just above the oil "O" ring via a oil drainage port?... Wouldn't both of these alone help to cool the injector?.. Direct cylinder head/ Engine oil temps a loan would have to be far greater than engine bay heat wouldn't they? ... So surly the intercooler would not contribute to injector failure?
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"Also".. Has anyone noticed that No1 cylinder seems to be a common cylinder to fail? (Not that there is that many out there that fail in a catastrophic manor anyway!) and I bet they were not stock standard at the time either! Wink,Wink!... Lol ... Could the reason for the mod to No:1 injector clamp be the fact that "only" No1 cylinder is the only cylinder in the cylinder head that has the EGR exhaust port running in front of it (Hilux D4D heads as well) before the EGR heat-exchange on the cylinder head when all the other three ports have a water jacket around them!... So can we say that the water is better at removing heat than exhaust gases?... Maybe?
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I did also mention some where that the firing order of the engine is 1,3,4,2.... This is important because "if" one cylinder was to loose power the ECU would know this based on the resistance feed-back from the fuel injector (cylinder compression verses resistance to opening the injector) and put extra fuel in the next cylinder to try and compensate a cylinder power loss.
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EG: No:1 cylinder drops power (Maybe hole in piston/snapped piston ring/piston grabbed for what-ever reason) so extra fuel and load is then passed onto the next inline firing cylinder No:3! This is why i believe if one piston has a hole in it there will be one with a crack in it due to the extra load being passed on to it as the engine management try's to sustain even power (Cylinder compensation).. And obviously if left undetected all cylinders will eventually fail!.... Good bye engine!
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Arhhh!! Now i have got that off my chest on what some of my thoughts are I think i shall now run away!... Not with intention to attack but more the way i see it! Lol
Cheers

[butane8 Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close butane8]

very clear point made sky........ thx for the info, cheers butane

[Steve-Kylie 120 Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Steve-Kylie 120]

So it front mounting a 120 intercooler is only a band aid solution?

Or a very good bandaid?

Only just got my Aug-2008 120 with 89k on the clock and no sign of injector trouble yet, although I do feel she is a little down on power, not in the meat of the torque area (1500-2500rpm) but everywhere else and I'm like everyone else, not wanting a expensive trip to the mechanics.

I did my part and took the survey, also added it too my Facebook (no pp link or reference just survey) as i know a few prado owners.

Current employer have had 20 d4d prados in 3yrs and only 1 engine with 1 injector trouble, a older 2007 model I'm sure, oh and until recently we only used BP diesel as that's the only fuel card we had.

These prados aren't driven lightly either, 200k-250k of being driven like there stolen, all day everyday. We switch them out every 2yrs.

I have to ask Sharon, did you hit up Toy Aus on facebook aswell, i remember someone bagging them out in there and i jumped in and helped them out.

[Bushbasher Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close Bushbasher]

Quote "EG: No:1 cylinder drops power (Maybe hole in piston/snapped piston ring/piston grabbed for what-ever reason) so extra fuel and load is then passed onto the next inline firing cylinder No:3! This is why i believe if one piston has a hole in it there will be one with a crack in it due to the extra load being passed on to it as the engine management try's to sustain even power (Cylinder compensation).. And obviously if left undetected all cylinders will eventually fail!.... Good bye engine!" end quote.
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The engine management system wouldn't know that a cylinder has been holed/ring broken and resultant power loss. How do you think the ECM figures that out? There's no broken piston sensor. There's no sensor at each exhaust port reading the outgoing gas to see if proper combustion has taken place. The injector cycle will fire regardless. If the ECM was that smart then it wouldn't let you fire up the engine when this type of breakage occured. With my engine failure, number 1 and number 4 pistons were holed because number 1 and number 4 injectors went out of range. Unfortunately they don't run too well on 2 pots.

Oh by the way, have a look back through this thread because there is a 150 that blew an engine at 20,000km in 2012.

[SWR Banned Find all posts View Profile Close SWR]

Gday Bushbasher
I really don't want to go off topic on this thread and i am "REALY" trying to keep in one area here but if pushed hard enough i would be happy to give my thoughts on this in more detail.
"MAYBE!".... Not that it is writing anywhere on this forum that i could drag up! that be maybe there has been where the fuel rail sensor/air MAF sensor have been manipulated and corrigulated so that the ECU wouldn't have a clue that fuel rail pressures have been elevate and a shim to fuel relief valve to stop rail pressures being dumped and that what is really going on given that if "MAYBE "ANY" of the Toyota safety features have been disarmed??? (Manipulated outside of Toyotas programmed safety parameters) I just don't know??? But if "ANY" of the mentioned had been carried out then that would be a guaranteed warranty void full stop!!... (There is a story behind noisy injectors but i never explained that one anywhere on this forum!) But that would have to be proven given that there is no proof of that!
We all know that Toyota by law can not stop mods being carried out to the vehicle but if "ANY" manipulation of the inbuilt safety features are changed in any way they "CAN" and would backed by the law void your warranty if an engine failure was to happen!
If all TOYOTA safety features are un-tampered with then i do believe that the engine management system can identify when perimeters are crossed and can protect its self accordingly and even throw you a CEL with a choice of codes and if it was to be a really bad error with the mapped parameters it would be even kind enough to throw in a limp mode to make sure no fatal engine damager to happen But things would have to get really bad for that to happen!
Cheers

[ntp Addicted PP Member Find all posts View Profile Close ntp]

I wonder if Chippy had many respond to his survey and what were his results?

Did you click on the link & read the thread? It tells you how many respondents there were and gives the survey results.

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FWIW I accept that some Prado owners are unfortunate to experience failures, and the response by Toyota hasn't met all expectations. On some occasions, their responses appear almost ignorant of some of the facts. But I am not convinced there is a major manufacturing fault overall. That said, clearly Toyota has learnt from experiences and made manufacturing changes as a result. Those unfortunate enough to experience a failure are no doubt devastated. No one wants this.

I don't accept the logic (or mathematics) of 'The Roo' but accept his right to his opinion, as I do AJ120. It is for each to decide themselves their own views on this.

For the record, I love my 120 series and hope nothing causes me to feel otherwise. But it is a piece of machinery. And sometimes machinery can fail. That is the risk of using machinery. No one likes it when it does. It can be costly. Life is full of risks and never guaranteed.

If there was a major fault (deception) at play, I'm sure Slater & Gordon would be happy to lead a class action claim.

[AJ120 Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close AJ120]

So it front mounting a 120 intercooler is only a band aid solution?

Or a very good bandaid?

########## is the only person here that has suggested this is a fix for the problem, when I pushed him for an explanation as to how he came to that conclusion I received no evidence at all that it would make any difference, this solution is at best an educated guess. Even if you follow Roo's advice on this he will also tell you that it only gives you another 20 thou before you need to change the injectors, so even it made a difference its only a very expensive bandaid.

As I eluded to above, figures like a 10% catastrophic failure are just total BS, look to your own real life experience and be guided by that. Toyota will tell you not to believe everything you read on the internet, that is sooooo true. It takes a lot of reading and effort to sort the wheat from the chaff, especially on this topic.

Cheers Andrew

[wooley Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close wooley]

It takes a lot of reading and effort to sort the wheat from the chaff

You can borrow my header if you'd like AJ.. It does a pretty good job.

[mjrandom Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close mjrandom]

You can borrow my header if you'd like AJ.. It does a pretty good job.

Is it red or green?

[AJ120 Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close AJ120]

You can borrow my header if you'd like AJ.. It does a pretty good job.

Thanks for the offer Wooley, but I think I have this one sorted. On a related topic though, if you are interested I can point you in the direction of some cheap fertiliser around here

Cheers Andrew