diesel rattle in D4D Prado

[krypto Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close krypto]

Could someone clarify if this rattle is worse on cold mornings?

[mjrandom Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close mjrandom]

When I cross referenced the part numbers from www.toyodiy.com with a Toyota Service/Parts person the numbers and dates were the same.

[sleeky5 Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close sleeky5]

Could someone clarify if this rattle is worse on cold mornings?

Hi Krypto,

Mine always had some rattle from brand-new however all others sound the same so I now believe it is normal. However it was absolutely dreadful when I was in Adelaide in June when the minimum temperatures were hovering around zero. It sounded like someone rattling a bucket of marbles until it warmed up. Even then it was noisier than usual. Came back to Darwin and it was back to normal. So it does seem to be very much temperature related in my case. Mine has now done 108,000km.

[blakegregory Lurker Find all posts View Profile Close blakegregory]

Just had mine replaced up north here in karratha with toyota footing half the bill(out of warranty, so I am quite happy about that). I did experience the rattle during winter here and whilst I was in perth.

[russellb Lurker Find all posts View Profile Close russellb]

Can I make a late addition to this thread? It may be that my problem is different, and if you want me to start a new thread, that's OK.

I have a KDJ120 Prado Grande- November 2006, so one of the earlier KDJ issue, bought second-hand at about 25000 Km. It has now done about 128000 Km. We've been travelling about a fair bit, so no consistent fuel choice.

Earlier this year began to rattle when cold (cold here is below 20 deg.) Noise reduced quite quickly on warming, but while we were travelling in Nth Qld in September began to blow white smoke on starting. Now this happens regularly if I park the car facing downhill (engine hot) and start after about an hour or so.

Took to local Toyota Service, checked injectors and claim "all within normal" and no ECU errors recorded. Reprogrammed ECU and did a "chemical injector clean" and said it takes about 1000 Km for this to be effective. Now after 1000Km+ no difference. Still cloud of white smoke on start. Possibly the rattle is less. BTW the dealer was able to reproduce the smoke.


Any suggestions as to the next step, please? Vehicle is 2 years out of warranty now and local dealer is not the original supplier.


Thanks for any help.

Russell

[Davros Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close Davros]

Any suggestions as to the next step, please? Vehicle is 2 years out of warranty now and local dealer is not the original supplier.


Thanks for any help.

Russell

Russell it is not the injectors that have failed but the injector seats. They are a very cheap part that are well known for failing in all prados and hiluxes buily up to late 2008. The seats are made of copper and have been upgraded to aluminium. You will find that #1 and possibly #2 has failed. This is why you get the puff of white somke at startup, as oil from the crankcase flows down into the cylinder when the vehicle is parked nose downhill. I would advise you to get the seats replaced asap otherwise you will be looking at a full rebuild very soon, when #1 piston fails catastrophically. I just did mine this week at my freinds mechanical workshop. It can be a mongrel of a job, as by the time symptoms of white smoke appear, the injector is problably already stuck in-situ due to carbon buildup around the injector, jamming it in the injector bore. All traces of muck and carbon buildup must be cleaned up prior to reinstalling the injectors and this is a difficult and messy job. As said previously, the parts cost is cheap.... only about $60.00 all up, but the labour can be quite a lot. If the injectors are not stuck in place, it costs between $800.00 and $1000.00 to do the job. If one or more are stuck in place, the cost goes up. Also, you may be up for at least the cost of one injector, at about $650.00. This is usually #1 as it suffers from extreme heat buildup around the injector body, due to being surrounded by all the previously mentioned buildup. This casues the injector to fail, commonly leving the injector in a wide open state, which causes the extreme knocking.

I personally believe that the seats issue, is what is leading to injector failures in so many vehicles.

hope my comments have been of assistance.

Steve

[russellb Lurker Find all posts View Profile Close russellb]

Thanks for that info, Steve,

I am pretty sure that the smoke I am seeing is fuel rather than oil. It's definitely white and does not have the smell of oil smoke. I've been around vehicles long enough to recognise that difference.

In any case sounds better than replacing all 4 injectors, which appeared to be the prospect.

Russell

[Davros Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close Davros]

I am pretty sure that the smoke I am seeing is fuel rather than oil. It's definitely white and does not have the smell of oil smoke. I've been around vehicles long enough to recognise that difference.

It is oil leakage though. This week I have done the debate to death with 4 mechanics from 3 different workshops who are all aquantences. All of them were very interested and in the diagnosis and cure, and we are all now in consensus that this is the problem.
The nose down hill test is the giveaway.

Mine is now cured with the seats being replaced, so that proves it anyway.

My advise stands.... You should really look at getting the work done asap, or be prepared for possible total engine failure shortly.

Steve

[Riv39 Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close Riv39]

Steve, in your ealier post you say I personally believe that the seats issue, is what is leading to injector failures in so many vehicles. If this theory is true, what is causing the knock in the 150 series Prado as I assume the seats are the revised type?

[krypto Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close krypto]

I can't see how the seats issue causes the rattle, it makes no sense so happy for someone to explain.

My 150 was checked by the dealer yesterday, and they found no issue. Still having over 5 years of warranty I'm not overly worried, but a little annoyed that this will no doubt be a long saga.

It only does it for a short while when first driving, but boy it sounds bad, a metallic clanging/rattling at 1800-2000rpm that goes away after 5-10 minutes. I assume it will get worse with time.

The test that Toyota did was in the workshop idling from cold, which sounds fine on my engine. Is this consistent with what others have experienced?

Also interestingly they tried to fix a rattle coming from the right dash area at 1500rpm. They said this was a known issue, the service guy said that they'd even tried changing air-boxes to get rid of the resonance. This is actually more annoying than the diesel rattle as it is there all the time.

[Davros Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close Davros]

Steve, in your ealier post you say I personally believe that the seats issue, is what is leading to injector failures in so many vehicles. If this theory is true, what is causing the knock in the 150 series Prado as I assume the seats are the revised type?

I can't say with regard to the 150.
My theory about the injectors failing in the 120, and that being associated with the faulty seats is based on my experience where #1 injector was going bad, and that was the injector that was physically stuck in place (in my case, and in the majority of cases from what I have been told), due to carbon buildup from the faulty seats. The carbon had literally encased the entire bottom half of the injector, and was glass like in density. My theory (and that is all it is) is that the injector would get very much hotter than if it had the designed clearances intact, and that it is the excess heat buildup that leads to the injector piston siezing, which in turn causes overfueling and piston failure.

I am a builder, not a mechanic, but the theory was discussed while having a beer with the guys (all mechanics) earlier in the week, and that is what we settled on as the probable issue and cause.

Mine had been going bad for the past month or so, and I think I was very lucky to have got away with it, and not damaging the engine.
1 new injector, and all seats replaced, and mine is powering along like new.

Steve

[frederick Member Find all posts View Profile Close frederick]

Hi guys just my two bobs worth, My 2006 D4D Auto has just clocked over 170000 ks and i am happy to inform no rattle in the mornings or when engine is cold. I purchased vehicle secondhand at 145000 last December and have never had the deadly rattle so am i just lucky or has the original owner had all the injector problems before i got it. Vehicle has always been toyota log book serviced so maybe rattle problems have been fixed already. I know the valve clearances were checked and adjusted by Toyota on one of my services recently so maybe that helps as well. Car runs fine helped with the 3" beaudesert exhaust system and its going in tomorrow for roof rack to be fitted and also has just had a pedders suspension lift front and rear and major check over. We are hooking up the caravan in 4 weeks then heading north to Brisbane then 6 weeks later heading around Australia. I have PM the Roo re his comments about high mileage Prados as now i am slightly worried about our 30,000 k around australia trip in a Prado that has already done 170,000??.

Wazza (frederick)

[mjrandom Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close mjrandom]

Davros that is very interesting. Similar thing I have seen from worn valve stem seals and I cannot quite get my head around the injector seal though. Given the pressures in the combustion chamber I would expect leakage out as well as in. According to toyodiy the seal part numbers are unchanged from the first 120 series D4D right through to the current 150. Do you have any more information to share?

[Davros Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close Davros]

Davros that is very interesting. Similar thing I have seen from worn valve stem seals and I cannot quite get my head around the injector seal though. Given the pressures in the combustion chamber I would expect leakage out as well as in. According to toyodiy the seal part numbers are unchanged from the first 120 series D4D right through to the current 150. Do you have any more information to share?

The seal part numbers may not have changed, but the seal sure has. The original seals/seats are made of copper, and the new ones are aluminium. The seating surface is only about 2mm. Bad design IMO. There was nothing stopping denso from making the seating surface on the injectors much larger in the first place.
To me, copper was also a bad choice of material in the first place. Talk about a dissimilar metal sandwhich.
Steel (injector), copper (seat) and alluminium (head)

I took some really crappy photos of the parts in question. (phone)
You still should be able to see where the copper seat has failed.


Steve

[mjrandom Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close mjrandom]

Steve the copper washer is sad but I assume that Toyota have changed the washer along the way and there are late 120 and recent 150s with injector issues. Alledgedly (just get that in for the sake of pc). What month 08 is your 120? There are 4 different injector part numbers and essentially 3 as the late 120 and 150 injectors are mechanically the same. I am thinking there are a few problems and not just one. The only injector I have seen pictures of was an early one and the nozzle was definately worn which meant the fuel wasn't being atomised enough and thus the combustion wasn't even and (uncontrolled) detonation was occuring. These injectors are quite complex with lots of moving parts susceptible to less than perfect conditions. Having said that there are still first edition injectors that are out there working away.