Petrol vs Diesel: A 10 year urban running cost comparison

[photoprado]

I mentioned in post #28 that people will argue about the fuel economy figures, and that is exactly what you are doing.

I don't think that is an argument, it's just a simple disagreement. There is more in the disagreement than just fuel consumption.

Unfortunately, I don't have recorded data to share so I can't really help sorting the disagreement, but I would point out that one swallow's fuel data does not a summer make

I do check my fuel consumption on trips, to make sure nothing is playing up. I just don't record it for prosperity.

[Whitey]

Crickey Mark,

That comment is simply pretentious and arrogant! Fair dinkum - so much so that I almost let it through to the keeper lol.

Try a million miles of real world experience.

I'm sure you didn't mean it as it reads. This is not meant as a personal attack and I appreciate the effort you put into it - that effort is not taken for granted.

I seem to live in the same real world as Photoprado -
and there are others like me in the 10 to 11/100 city average.

One V6 poster is happy getting 14.6/100 around town. I'm happy getting 13.8 over 5,500k Warwick - Blue Mtns - Snowy Mtns. and back
WHILST towing 1900kg and with Prado almost fully loaded. That included several crossings of the Great Divide with long, 2nd gear ascents.

Your price differential over a year appears way understated, in my experience.
Did you throw in the extra $169 a year rego for six cylinder over four in Qld. Doesn't affect everyone but does affect you and I.
Your 17/100 around town and 30/100 off road are in keeping with what I've observed the petrol boys are getting.
Your happy with that and that's fine.
They will throw your results way out though. It is noted that you came up with three different answers with the toing and froing which underlines how complicated the exercise is. Why not stick with your own figures and costs of fuel and retain some factual control?

Anyway, the only conclusion that can be made:-

People who are fans of petrol, based on their experiences and usage, will buy petrol.
Ditto for diesel fans buying diesels.
Everyone's happy.

As for people making the decision to buy a new Prado today, Toyota web site fuel figures may make the petrol boys weep:
9.7 around town diesel, 15 for 95RON petrol (consistently 10 to 30 cents a litre dearer than diesel based on our experience with the wife's car)
So on Toyota figures, even urban bound soccer mums might think twice about petrol.
Any one using the transfer case or towing abilities shouldn't have to think too hard about it but whichever way they go, they should be happy with their choice.
We all know how hard the manufacturers claims are to meet - on the road figures tend to be even worse.

Hey,

I find that any time someone uses the expression "this is not meant as a personal attack" right after labeling someone as pretentious and arrogant tends to mean what they say.

You attempt to ridicule my analysis as it took several goes to get it as far as I could. I was collecting data as I put the thread together, it started out with yearly averages and worked down to monthly averages, so yes it took a few goes to get it right, finding historical monthly data and putting it all together isn't as simple as you think, and it took me a couple of days to compile the data.

Show me all of the forum threads that have number crunched using historical national average fuel prices, there aren't any. I've made an honest attempt to do it, and I've used other users fuel economy figures.

Nothing is going to "throw the results out". Yes the V6 uses 30l/100km when it's getting flogged, but that isn't every single second its being driven off road. Maybe if you had a V6 you'd understand that.

I mentioned in post #28 that people will argue about the fuel economy figures, and that is exactly what you are doing.

You then try to close your argument by using Toyota web site fuel figures, pretty funny really!

I'm happy to sit back and wait for your own breath taking analysis which proves me wrong.

Best

Mark

[150gxl]

True words indeed Rob. I use the same methodology as you.
Btw, have found the trip computer to be reasonably close most times but throws in a real wobbly, every now and then.
For that recent sortie to the Snowys and back , I used the Fuel Map app for data logging and cross checked the figures on a lap top spreadsheet.

[rob_macca67]

You also have to factor an individual's driving style and then there's the vehicle's accessories and tyre sizes......


All I know is my fuel figures are accurate as they can be & are recorded from the bowser and also the % factor for the larger M/T's (265/70/17 - 4.5% increase) is also factored in. When I fill up, I constantly fill up the tanks right to the top of the filler, so ALL refills are always to the FULL mark. I don't bother looking at the trip computer in the centre as this is never accurate from my experiences....

[150gxl]

Hey ####,



I still think many buyers will purchase based on preconceived historical ideas/benefits etc., and a million miles of misinformed nonsense on the internet, but maybe now both types of motor can be looked at with a fresh perspective based on some real world analysis!


Mark

Crickey Mark,

That comment is simply pretentious and arrogant! Fair dinkum - so much so that I almost let it through to the keeper lol.

Try a million miles of real world experience.

I'm sure you didn't mean it as it reads. This is not meant as a personal attack and I appreciate the effort you put into it - that effort is not taken for granted.

I seem to live in the same real world as Photoprado -
and there are others like me in the 10 to 11/100 city average.

One V6 poster is happy getting 14.6/100 around town. I'm happy getting 13.8 over 5,500k Warwick - Blue Mtns - Snowy Mtns. and back
WHILST towing 1900kg and with Prado almost fully loaded. That included several crossings of the Great Divide with long, 2nd gear ascents.

Your price differential over a year appears way understated, in my experience.
Did you throw in the extra $169 a year rego for six cylinder over four in Qld. Doesn't affect everyone but does affect you and I.
Your 17/100 around town and 30/100 off road are in keeping with what I've observed the petrol boys are getting.
Your happy with that and that's fine.
They will throw your results way out though. It is noted that you came up with three different answers with the toing and froing which underlines how complicated the exercise is. Why not stick with your own figures and costs of fuel and retain some factual control?

Anyway, the only conclusion that can be made:-

People who are fans of petrol, based on their experiences and usage, will buy petrol.
Ditto for diesel fans buying diesels.
Everyone's happy.

As for people making the decision to buy a new Prado today, Toyota web site fuel figures may make the petrol boys weep:
9.7 around town diesel, 15 for 95RON petrol (consistently 10 to 30 cents a litre dearer than diesel based on our experience with the wife's car)
So on Toyota figures, even urban bound soccer mums might think twice about petrol.
Any one using the transfer case or towing abilities shouldn't have to think too hard about it but whichever way they go, they should be happy with their choice.
We all know how hard the manufacturers claims are to meet - on the road figures tend to be even worse.

[photoprado]

Hey,

If you look at Robs diesel economy figures, his fuel economy changed from 12.4 (including off road trips) down to 12.0l/100km for urban only. His offroad/onroad proportion is 32902km/97376km = 130278km total. So 25% offroad driving has not changed things much economy wise.

Hey,

I'm not Rob.

We get around 11L/100km on the road and in the outback unless we're climbing tracks around Arkaroola etc. We're touring more than grinding up hills in low range or whatever. We get excellent touring range in the Prado. I'm happy for you to like the petrol V6 because you like the better V6 power under your foot. I'm kinda over that, but I have something faster than any Prado if I need to feel real acceleration.

I don't love diesels any more than petrols. For my use, in a Prado, the diesel is a better option. With the better range, we can bypass low volume fuel stops without worrying. Diesels suffer worse with bad fuel, but bad fuel will stop a petrol as well. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt.

Cheers!

[Whitey]

I'm happy to have a V6 Petrol over owning a CRD Diesel to many issues with worrying about bad fuel and the cost of new engine and servicing costs and cleaning out the carbon

Hey,

Bad fuel is definitely a big factor for CRD diesels, a tiny bit of water can do some serious damage.

I've seen brand new diesels back into the workshop on their second day having the entire fuel system drained, tank, lines, filters, you name it, all because they filled up with a bad batch of diesel (in the city). Out bush this can be even worse.

The high pressure in CRD design is an issue, and there's no guarantee even if you have new injectors and seats that you won't kill an injector due to micron sized grit in the fuel. Most diesel filters are 2 micron, and they don't filter out the tiny grit and crap in diesel, which can be right down to nanoparticulate in size. The injectors operate very hard with sub-micron tolerances, so it's impossible not to eventually scratch up the inside of them, or even partially clog them and bugger their spray patterns.

It's just too costly to filter the crap in diesel down to a fine sub-micron size, so manufacturers don't bother.

Best

Mark

[Whitey]

I tend to agree that it doesn't make much difference for mostly urban use, but I'm one of those weird Prado owners who basically only uses the Prado for trips, especially outback trips, (oh, and for taking the rubbish to the dump and occasionally towing a trailer) About 90% of the kms is trip, and well over half is on dirt.

I'd take the diesel every time.

Hey,

If you look at Robs diesel economy figures, his fuel economy changed from 12.4 (including off road trips) down to 12.0l/100km for urban only. His offroad/onroad proportion is 32902km/97376km = 130278km total. So 25% offroad driving has not changed things much economy wise.

The reason this doesn't change much is because of the distances involved to get anywhere in Australia, where you are doing lengthy stints on dirt tracks.

The economy will get worse of course once you get to a destination like the Simpson, but that worse economy will be for both diesel and petrol, and the amount of km's at worst economy will be a minor proportion of total km's traveled for the trip.

Even including off road figures, any benefit to the diesel is still going to be on the minor side, you might push that savings figure of $187/year out to $200/year.

You say you'd take the diesel every time, fair enough, but your reasoning is I'm guessing because you are a person who loves diesels, and nothing will change your mind about that!

I am similarly biased, with a choice between the 3.0 D4D and the V6, I will take the V6 every time.

However, throw a 79 series diesel into the argument, and then I will be listening to the V8 all day long, but only because I know it has more grunt than the 3.0 D4D.

For the moment, I'm happy to pay $187 extra a year to have some V6 power underneath my foot!

Best

Mark

[turtlewa]

I'm happy to have a V6 Petrol over owning a CRD Diesel to many issues with worrying about bad fuel and the cost of new engine and servicing costs and cleaning out the carbon

[photoprado]

I tend to agree that it doesn't make much difference for mostly urban use, but I'm one of those weird Prado owners who basically only uses the Prado for trips, especially outback trips, (oh, and for taking the rubbish to the dump and occasionally towing a trailer) About 90% of the kms is trip, and well over half is on dirt.

I'd take the diesel every time.

[Whitey]

Hey ####,

Not a useless post!

As I said above, the range of the diesel is a big draw card, and anyone who has used their V6 in heavy off road conditions knows they will chew 30l/100km. Long range tanks and extra jerry cans close the range gap, but of course it's more weight to lug around.

Look I know on road the difference is much smaller, but it's a 4x4

The model I have used includes "total" on and off road economy figures from real world data (Rob and JGD) and monthly historical fuel prices, so cost wise the diesel and petrol are much closer than expected, with the diesel on average saving you $187/year.

With regard to driving conditions, there will of course be driver preferences, petrol power in the sand etc., diesel down steep hills etc.

I think you summed it up well in one of your previous posts, they're both good engines when maintained properly, and you should be happy owning a Prado and getting off road in our giant wilderness wonder land!

Best

Mark

[Anth120playdo]

Yes there are many people who go for diesel & shouldn't.

When you sell your diesel you get the extra back, so it's still cheaper
Ever since I saw a petrol Prado have its 90 ltr light go on after 300k in the Vic high country & all this need for fuel stops, the offroad range makes me sick. The diesels all got 600+ on the same trip, even 1kz.
Must mention the general fuel stops every time we drive past a servo & the diesels stop 1 in 3 lol.......
Just kidding its only twice as much haha.......

Look I know on road the difference is much smaller, but it's a 4x4

For me, I often need to diesel compression on slippery descents, still scary in an auto! the low torque is great also, smooth power/torque.
I do prefer the drive of the 1kd turbo, well I prefer turbos, quiet achievers, they just pull!

There you go a completely useless post.

Cheers,

####.

[Whitey]

Hey,

Yep, the great and irrational Australian obsession with diesel!

Diesel has it's place, in trucks and on farms where the rebate is obviously of great benefit.

In 4wd terms, the cost advantage of modern diesel engines is not there anymore, and your personal preference may come down to logistical arguments.

4wd factors such as range in remote locations are one of the biggest draw cards for a diesel, however, I've been cross country in my V6, Simpson, lengthy stretches such as Great Central rd etc. Long range fuel tanks, rear bars and roof rack jerrycan holders close the gap for petrol vehicles in terms of remote travel.

I personally am planning to do the Madigan Line solo one day in my V6, it's not logistically impossible.

Other factors to consider are engine power and torque. The 3.0 D4D just doesn't cut the mustard for me in power terms, and doesn't come near what I personally feel is enough power for a big heavy 4wd, which I think should be up around 200kW. Torque arguments about towing aren't really there for the Prado, there's bugger all difference in torque between petrol and diesel.

In saying all of that, if I had the coin I'd buy a 79 series in a heartbeat, as there is grunt to be had!

Best

Mark

[Rusty62]

Agree that the difference is just plain wrong. But this is what the Australian public will pay and the justification doesn't matter.

My thoughts are still the same, when buying new - Diesel
Buying used - Petrol.

OR just buy you want and be happy.

Happy motoring.

Rusty.

Going by current 120 Prados on Carsales (indicative but not reliably accurate):
1KZ 162
1KD 235
1GR 399
1:1 diesel: petrol ratio

150 Prados (not including the 3-door models)
1KD 1,013
1GR 101
10:1 Diesel: petrol ratio