The 150 series Dual Battery Guide

[foxpro]

Alright. Will stick with small and light aux in normal position and not wire the link switch. Jumper cables are always in the car anyway, so no issues. Thanks for replying.

[LeighW]

Yes, if the start battery goes flat you could just use a set of jumper cables
to jump start of the aux assuming it has charge in it.

[mjrandom]

First question - yes, no problems
Second question - tricky...

It's tricky because not everyone with a dual battery has cracked guards on the pre update and so far nothing reported on the update changed guards. Also some with cracked guards have had the problem on one side, others the other side and some both sides. However swapping the batteries will involve a lot of wiring that is probably not worth the trouble. Marine Pro is a good choice for that location so just run with it.

[foxpro]

Wow, after reading many pages of this informative thread on what I thought to be a straight forward task I still have some questions.

I'm after the simplest DBS solution possible. No bells. No whistles. No dash display. No switches. Just two outlets in the back. One to power a 40L fridge. One for compressor/general usage.

I have so far ordered:
- ebay battery tray
- Sidewinder Battery Isolator Kit & Cable Set
- Sidewinder Rear Power Outlet cable
- BAINTECH DC Distribution Panel BTCP004R - Volt, USB, CIGA, CIGA 20A Circuit Protect
- Marine Pro battery NS70M (MP620) probaly

My questions:

- Should the starter battery run flat, can simple existing starter cables be used to link the two batteries and hopefully start the engine? Or would that upset the isolator? I would prefer this instead of wiring the link switch. Every part that is not installed can not fail or malfunction.

- Contemplating switching Aux/main battery to allow for a larger Aux in the factory position. Are there still issues in regards of too much weight and possible inner guard cracks in 2014 models?

[Momo]

[QUOTE=MelbournePark;489777]How big is it?

Drifta have this expensive coffee maker but its big and looks like it would handle an open fire on the coals without issues. $119 though but the handles would work ( I have one of their fireplaces and its great ):
http://www.drifta.com.au/snow-peak-coffee-percolator/

Nespresso. We use a stainless bialetti or similar brand meant for cooktop. Works on camp oven/coals as long as it's not too hot, you will drink rubber seal if it is lol

[Momo]

Thanks LeighW. I'm looking at 80l fridge freezer running mainly as a low temp fridge. I'll narrow it down and then post the specs of the one I'm looking at. Sounds like I need to consider the current draw as well as the usual other factors. Thx for the tip. As for coffee machine, not a necessity as we use a stainless percolator but mrs wants to bring a small nespresso. I'll check the specs on that too.

[LeighW]

I haven't had any issues with my Prado carrying a Marine Pro on the guard, my friends Prado
around 130000Km's now has had both Marine Pros and Optimas. Manufacturers now are pushing weight strength issues to improve fuel consumption figures, obviously in the Prado they have pushed a bit far under under some circumstances and will go back the other way a tad.

The weight saving gains of lithium's would be good, double or triple capacity and keep weight the same, they just need to be user friendly and prove themselves.

I have worked in electronics all my life, on staff, doing contract work, consulting and running my own business. I have worked for many multi national companies all with extensive technical plant and all requiring no break back up power systems and up until the time I retired around two years ago none, repeat none used any lithium batteries, they used thousands of lead acid but that was it.

Cost was not an issue, if you could replace the lead acid with a light weight battery, and reduce floor loadings building costs would come down, maintenance costs would also come down etc. Some tried Nicads which where to be the end all be all but had to pull them out when they didn't perform as promised.

I don't believe there is a conspiracy in the battery industry to keep them out, they have also seen other battery types come and go that were going to make everything else obsolete and it didn't happen due to their shortfalls. Their not going to going to start down a road a possible loose many, many millions of dollars until a technology has proven itself.

Simple fact is other battery technologies to date just haven't performed as per the manufacturers glossies, current generation lithiums maybe be different but the first generation self destructing and causing fires hasn't been all that successful requiring a second generation.

I haven't had any thing to do with vehicle lithium's, Drivesafe has, he runs a successful company manufacturing and installing dual battery systems, as he wrote he has also done several lithium installations and so far not impressed with the setups.

From my perspective I have had a lot of exposure to lithium batteries in domestic equipment, so far I haven't seen any great change in battery life compared to Nicads, NMHI etc, in fact my ASUS laptop with a lithium battery is showing signs of reduced capacity and it is less than 12 months old, that's the worst life of a laptop battery I have had to date. The battery may be smaller and pack a higher density but so far it's life span does not appear impressive!

From a repair point of view they have caused more issues than they have solved, consumers aren't aware of their charging requirements, they use a device a couple of times then put it away, they pull it out to use a year or two later go to charge it and the battery won't charge as it has gotten to low, try telling a customer the benefits of lithium batteries when they have to replace the battery after a couple of uses!

I see this as a severe limitation, there will always be users who will over discharge their batteries either deliberately or accidentally, unless low voltage cutouts are installed the battery could be damaged. Even with low voltage cutouts if the user doesn't recharge the battery the cell balancing units and battery management will probably continue to draw current and so continue to discharge the battery, how long do you have before it gets to a critical situation?

They may prove themselves over the next few years, and if prices come down, then the weight reduction would certainly make then attractive but then you also have to take into account the charger costs if required, no good having huge battery capacity if you can't charge it directly off the alternator, as your then going to need a large capacity charger and that isn't going to be a cheap shout?

There's also discussions going on about raising basic vehicle voltages to say 42V to provide more efficient operation of power steering, brakes etc, another headache for the future, there goes all your 12V equipment!

[MelbournePark]

...
Momo,
go solar to keep the batteries charged in the camper, Portable panels are relatively cheap.
for coffee when camping try one of these.
http://www.kulkyne.com/au/Compact-Es...FVgRvQoda7YAGw
makes a good cuppa.

How big is it?

Drifta have this expensive coffee maker but its big and looks like it would handle an open fire on the coals without issues. $119 though but the handles would work ( I have one of their fireplaces and its great ):
http://www.drifta.com.au/snow-peak-coffee-percolator/

The problem is that all those push up the water and let it filter down units (perhaps like the Kulkyne supplied one and certainly the Drifta supplied one) don't maker coffee anywhere near as good as a Bialetti does, which uses a different method and uses pressure. Hence the pressure hole. I love the coffee those things make and really those things make better coffee than fancy bean grinding high pressure big home machines. However I've never seen a Bialetti with anything but a plastic handle. They'd be great in a fire IMO but for the darn plastic handles.

http://www.kitchenwaredirect.com.au/...PhEaAkVT8P8HAQ

Anyone who knows of one without plastic handles please let me know, I'd buy one straight away!

[MelbournePark]

The Kimberly Karavan is well known for having chassis cracking issues a shocker failures which would appear to be directly attributed to the units weight. In my opinion one of the driving reasons Kimberly would have chosen to use Lithium batteries would have been the weight reduction the offer. Also fitting temperature tell tales to the shockers and then saying if they overheat it the owners responsibility is a bit of a cope out in my opinion from a company that advertises our units can go anywhere your car can, clearly from the number of failures occurring this is not the case, mind you there may be a few other companies pondering rewording their advertising after some recent court cases...

All the reports I've had about them - besides the early swinging arms which were re-designed - are that Kimberley are happy to repair things, that they've been constantly developing them, and that while the factory at Ballina are very willing, the outlets which are separate organizations often are more resistant.

Shocker failures happen in all vehicles, and used to be a huge issue in racing. A Kimberly Kamper from the 2007 could easily weigh 2.4 tonnes. And they have just two wheels - 1.2 tonne per wheel. That's a lot more load than a Prado's wheel. And same for the shockers. I think now Kimberly have an air suspension and mono shocks that stay cool, and the air makes it easier to change the tyre pressures. Expensive stuff and yes those all now have thin film solar arrays that save 50kg and Lithiums that save hundreds of kgs. Nothing wrong with saving weight in a trailer though. Its just common sense.

It would be nice if Prados had a guide to when you are pushing them too hard to avoid guard failure, eh? Still I think that Kimberly Fox shocker temperature feature (Kimberley don't make shockers either) is now gone.

The irony is that for a lead acid battery, light weight means the battery isn't as good since it means there's less lead and thinner plates, which hurts longevity. We all want to save weight in both towing and in the Prado. I do anyway.

As for the Lithium - I never mean't to say all Lithiums. I have lots of Lithiums at home - you can buy them in packets at Coles, but their output isn't high. Just most decent 12V higher AH units. As far as the brand you mentioned - well, check the brand and its characteristics. Limiting output is likely a subset of what their market is. Many have phenominal outputs though. Its a subset of efficiency and Lithiums are much more efficient than lead acid.

All the techs have differences - in camera flashes, NiMh have greater output capacity. Those batteries have big memory issues, and are a pain, but good flashes use them (Pro ones worth lots) because they recover the flash capability quicker than anything else. Nothing worse than waiting for your flash to recover while you miss all the action.

[Fred63]

Leigh some good comments regarding what you can expect a fridge to use and the effect on the batteries.
I have a 38L fridge running as a freezer camped in summer (30 = 35deg +) it uses around 38amp/hr.
I run a permanent 120W solar panel and a 130W portable panel., I have found by 11:30 in the morning when camping in summer the batteries are back on float charge. running 2 X100ah in the van.
Momo,
go solar to keep the batteries charged in the camper, Portable panels are relatively cheap.
for coffee when camping try one of these.
http://www.kulkyne.com/au/Compact-Es...FVgRvQoda7YAGw
makes a good cuppa.

[LeighW]

Really hard to say, depends on how you use it and for how long.

A fridge will draw around 2 - 4 Ah per hour down south on mild days, if you
run it as a freezer maybe double that on hot days, so if you have a 100 AH battery in back
of car, only discharge it to 50% SOC you'll get around 25 hours at 2 Ah average draw, if you go to 80% then 40 hours. With my setup, a marine pro and waeco 40 Ltr running as a freezer, if I pull up around 3PM I can camp for around two days without having to move and not using solar when heading north from April on ie mild days and cool nights.

80Ltr Fridge/freezer in van on the other hand draws 6 amps, and has a 40% on 60% of duty cycle ambient 30C. So van is fitted with two 100Ah AGM's.

You need to get the fridge and do some current measurements you'll than be able to work
out how long your going to get out of your battery.

If your talking coffee machine as in a proper stem heat unit your looking at big wattage's,
my little Krups pulls 1200W, that's over a 100 amps from your battery when running, even if only for 10 minutes operation that's a big hit on a 100 Ah battery.

[Momo]

Ive been following this very interesting and informative thread. It appears there are a few viable options for dual battery set up. I dont think i need a full-time DB set up in the truck but might be stuck with one anyway unless someone has a good suggestion? ..

Want to run a fridge in the back of the truck that i can take out as would really only use it when camping. (dont have the fridge yet). I tow a CT and have a larger marine battery in that (have to check the specs on it, been a while). I charge it from mains power at home and just basically run lights and charge phones etc in camp. Wife is getting some ideas re: coffee machine and a few other luxuries so will likely run an inverter.

Should i bite the bullet and put in a second in-car battery or can i get away with a system to charge the portable in-box battery that i can move to the back of the car if i just want to run the fridge when not towing? Your learned opinions much appreciated.

[LeighW]

Now now MelbournePark, you made some claims regarding Lithiums can be recharged faster than lead acid, I just provided manufactures specs for an Optima and a Fusion Lithium which clearly showed the Optima will recharge faster and that Fusion recommended recharge rates of 20 amps. A Marine Pro would recharge much faster than the Fusion battery at the recommend 20 amp rate and have a similar recharge times as the Fusion battery when it is charged at it's not recommended maximum rate of 40 amps.

You also made claims that all Lithiums can provide huge discharge currents, yet fusion only recommended (from memory as I can't find it listed now) maximum discharge rates of 100 amps, clearly it would seem is not designed for high discharge rates.

Yes I have seen Lithium starting batteries and of course lead acid starting batteries, and yes some AGM's should only be discharged at maximums of 20 amps and I see fusion also specify 100AH capacity at a nominal 20 amp rate.

As for pushing Optima, I said at the start I believe the Marine Pros offer best bang for buck.

The Kimberly Karavan is well known for having chassis cracking issues a shocker failures which would appear to be directly attributed to the units weight. In my opinion one of the driving reasons Kimberly would have chosen to use Lithium batteries would have been the weight reduction the offer. Also fitting temperature tell tales to the shockers and then saying if they overheat it the owners responsibility is a bit of a cope out in my opinion from a company that advertises our units can go anywhere your car can, clearly from the number of failures occurring this is not the case, mind you there may be a few other companies pondering rewording their advertising after some recent court cases.

If Lithiums are still around in 10 years time and the price comes down I will look at them myself though I suspect that I'll be having similar discussions with someone regarding a different battery chemistry or fuel cells by then.

As for Aussie made trailer companies bleeding, well maybe they need to look at their act, the company I brought my camper from is thriving, they offer a quality made product which is not cheap but people are prepared to pay extra for a good quality well made unit that is not going to give them any trouble.

[MelbournePark]

I picked two batteries that are designed for car ....

Optima's typical yellow and blue top specs are:
" Alternator: 13.65 to 15.0 volts
Battery Charger (Constant Voltage): 13.8 to 15.0 volts; 10 amps maximum; 6-12 hours approximate
Float Charge: 13.2 to 13.8 volts; 1 amp maximum; (indefinite time at lower voltages)
Rapid Recharge: Maximum voltage 15.6 volts. No current limit as long as battery
(Constant voltage charger) temperature remains below 125°F (51.7°C). Charge until
current drops below 1 amp.
Cyclic or Series String Applications: 14.7 volts. No current limit as long as battery temperature
remains below 125°F (51.7°C). When current falls below 1 amp,
finish with 3 amp constant current for 1 hour.
All limits must be strictly adhered to. "

If you want to continue pushing the Optima brand, then why not show us a link which reveals their discharge characteristics?
My Optimas seem OK, but their most powerful feature is their huge marketing and distribution program.

With Lithium, IMO they upset battery sellers, because the conventional battery distribution chains have been controlled by lead acid manufacturers. With Lithium, this is much less that case. Conventional (ie lead acid wet, flooded, AGM And Gel) sellers in all their niches, have less access to Lithium and if one goes back a couple of years you on PradoPoint you see battery sellers querying where they can find Lithiums. This situation has found companies sourcing cells from China and doing the electronics themselves, some in Australia. Its no wonder the warranties vary enormously for them.

.... As for Kimberly, their customers want 12V air conditioning, judging from the chassis failures they are having I not surprised they are opting for light weight batteries. Will Lithium take over, if the price comes down and reliability is proven maybe, but then again their already talking about different chemistries that will supposedly make Lithium obsolete.

This is a battery thread, and I think to make claims about Kimberly having chassis failures requires a statistical basis and either editing or substantiation. They are a popular quality product IMO that has been going for years and they even export.

And while Kimberly customers may want 12v air conditioning, all "luxury" campers all do!

However, Kimberly don't supply 12v air conditioning. They did, for a short period, mostly 2012. Now, Kimberly use 240v Air Cons. They use the batteries as a supplement for the starting of the air con's compressor's high amp starting kick - mostly via a decent inverter which draws from their batteries (which converts 12v to 240v). They call this I think their "hybrid system". They've even registered the name ... the hybrid includes: significant battery back-up; significant solar back-up; and using a portable generator.

The 12v unit would run down about 200 AH in around 6 hours I am told by someone who knows. The unit was 0.9 power draw compared to the current 240v 2.2. With heat pumps, power draw doesn't always indicate BTU issues, but its said that the 12 volt unit made it much more comfortable, but hardly cold. Unlike the latest tech, which really requires a small portable generator to run for a couple of hours per day to keep even their top line systems cool in the bush.

With the attacks on much of that industry from the Chinese importers; the amount of claimed Aussie made trailers companies bleeding; all mostly due to Chinese stuff being assembled here; that is far from Australian manufacturing standards IMO; I don't understand why attacking an Australian manufacturer in a battery thread is necessary.

[MelbournePark]

Thanks Prone.

I've read articles about why the auxiliary battery is led acid. The answer is cost! Its the starting battery for the petrol motor, its main power drain i think.

I test drove the latest (here in Australia at least) NX hybrid SUV by Lexus, based on the RAV floopan. Toyota claim its hybrid batteries are Lithium now. I read too that I think Hyundai hybrid came with Lithium.

Strangely though IMO if the energy recovering system was 100% efficient, I'd argue that low weight was a lower priority for such vehicles. While with conventional vehicles, and camper trailers especially with high power needs (and where low weight is a big benefit for going further off road) Lithium is a big advantage.