The 150 series Dual Battery Guide

[drivesafe]

Hi craigm and I would not be surprised if your battery comes back to a fully charged state.

Optimas take a pounding and even when discharged that low, and I have seen lower, they still can be recharged back to their normal level.

One thing to watch for, most battery chargers have a minimum battery voltage level, and any battery with a voltage level below it, the charger will not charge.

This is a safety procedure but if this happens, you can “trick” the charger into charging the battery by connecting your low battery to an other charged battery and then turn on the battery charger.

Once the charger is operating, just remove the good battery and the charger should continue to charge the low battery.

[craigm]

Cheers Symo. Picked up a Repco 16Amp 7 stage charger today. Fingers crossed... Thankfully I have a dual batt setup which allowed me to swap over the Aux. (trying to get the thread back on topic )

[Symo]

Just put a meter across the terminals of my 6mth old Optima - 5.8V.... Not good. Lets see if the warranty is honored from the retailer I purchased it from. I'm heading down to Repco now though to by a 7 stage charger as they're on special. Dont think it's going to recover this unit however...

Give the recovery mode a go, I bought a no name 15ah AGM back to life after six months of 6v status, took 24 hours for the recovery procedure to complete but it holds 12.9v on the shelf and runs a 30watt radio repeater all day no probs. I have 4A projecta 6 stage for the job at work, got one for home too now.

[MelbournePark]

Just put a meter across the terminals of my 6mth old Optima - 5.8V.... Not good. Lets see if the warranty is honored from the retailer I purchased it from. I'm heading down to Repco now though to by a 7 stage charger as they're on special. Dont think it's going to recover this unit however...

You would be covered for sure with just six months. Even by Australian law. I do not think they have grey market batteries - because it would be to expensive for grey marketers to ship them, due to their high weight. Hence it would be sourced from the Australian distributor, so you wouldn't have an issue.
, and my
In the USA though, Amazon sold Optima batteries do not seem to be covered ... I think if one bought one here through Amazon, Australian law would protect you though ...

I bought my first Optima from Goodyear Autocare Mentone, and the second one - which was delivered the next day with brilliant service - was from http://www.nqwholesaletechtraders.com who also advised me. They have a great database too for batteries and a wide range. I was keen to buy it from a person who services for me but he said my buy price was lower than his!

[craigm]

Make sure to put it on a descent 3 or 6 stage charger when home.

Just put a meter across the terminals of my 6mth old Optima - 5.8V.... Not good. Lets see if the warranty is honored from the retailer I purchased it from. I'm heading down to Repco now though to by a 7 stage charger as they're on special. Dont think it's going to recover this unit however...

[MelbournePark]

Hmmmmm......
... So you would recommend a good AGM over the optima then? I have had a look at the full river batteries and they appeared to be good. Might have to rethink the direction I was heading, although the optima's can accept charge alot quicker than the full river, so I guess it depends on how you want to use it.

As said, I am unsure of the quality of the Mexican made Optima, but perhaps its not an issue. I find it strange I cannot see warranty issues either, although many batteries warranties seem short.

The Optima does re-charge quickly, and that is important. But all the AGMs vary on that issue. AGMs typically recharge several times quicker than normal wet open or sealed vented units.

Quick re-charge is not an Optima exclusive. One has to check on how many amps they can accept too, and also consider your vehicle's setup for charging your batteries (including for many a trailer I guess). ie some people have a DC DC setup and go to a trailer ... IMO a DC DC will establish an ampage bottleneck that may diminish the advantage of an AGM's quick charge ability.

The Optima though for a second battery falls short IMO because its orientated for starting which for me seems a negative; and also for its size, it has less capacity.

Leigh W has been recommending a Marine Pro battery, which is likely mostly an AGM battery - with lots of fibreglass supports to make it tough. Its cheap, light, and has lots of AH. Its a good dual battery. I've said to Leigh W, I'd rather have fast re-charge - which is an AGM advantage. But - if for the same weight and size, you have much greater AH, then perhaps you don't need to recharge? Where is your sweet spot?

It seems to me that for a second battery, a dual is a waste of weight and has less life than a bigger capacity in amp hour battery. And more amp hours puts less recharge and hence greater life for your battery too. So, I think an Optima is not a good second battery - I'd rather have more Amp Hours for the same weight.

We left a light on in my wife's Lexus, for four days, and the computer should've turned it off, but it did not. But the car started no worries with its Optima - but it was a new one.

Symo reports how quickly his Optima recovered from running flat. But that Optima was I presume a 66 AH optima, or possibly the more powerful one? But, for its weight, another battery might not have run flat. Because the Optima does not have much capacity in AH IMO, for its size and weight. That it takes a high charge is great. However, the more often you run them down, the lower their life. And a battery that is orientated for dual usage will be hurt more IMO. Nonethless, Optima claim their battery will take many recharges compared to many other AGM's statistics. But for me, plate thickness is a key issue.

But on another issue, the statistics we get provided are perhaps not so reliable. And the information we are provided is perhaps not reliable.

Here is an example: The Exide ED2S battery, is likely a 6V battery. But Exide say its 12V. It even has a CCA rating (usually only supplied to a 12V battery). Its a wet battery, but semi industrial, and is described as being toughened for rough treatment. Its warranty is small though - which is typical of industrial batteries that can be used continually. Anyway, that battery weighs just 23Kg, and it has 150AH, and is deep cycle. So I rang Exide, for three days in a row, and still, they have not contacted me. I also got a dealer who I know who services my cars, to get details. Exide support just have a girl to read out the same data I get, and they don't have an engineer who knows their technology to provide support. The person who shall ring me is an sales guy, and that its taken days so far, indicates to me that whoever it is doesn't know a mistake in their publications (I jsut don't think a deep cycle can weigh 23kg, be 12V and have 150AH). But they seem to think their data is true?

So we are in an era where middle management have all been sacked, and knowledge is thin on the ground. The brochures and data are published by marketing personnel who write well but do not understand much about what they are expressing. I could go on - but Exide also had nonesense describing their top battery technology, due to an ignorant writer not knowing their technology.

What always happens with mature technology, is that companies try to confuse us. Like when buying a phone contract a few years ago, it was designed to confuse the user. Same too with batteries IMO ... an example for Optima fans, is the marine product. The blue top has four posts, is the same battery as the yellow, yet its cheaper. And we all seem to buy - like I did - the yellow top.

[Symo]

Hmmmmm......
Good info MelbournePark. So you would recommend a good AGM over the optima then? I have had a look at the full river batteries and they appeared to be good. Might have to rethink the direction I was heading, although the optima's can accept charge alot quicker than the full river, so I guess it depends on how you want to use it.

I have both, use the 120a full river in a box in the trailer or where ever, I don't charge it except at home. Last ages running a fridge, good week.

The optima in the car is for everything else, including the fridge, lights charging I devices.

[AussieAndy]

Hmmmmm......
Good info MelbournePark. So you would recommend a good AGM over the optima then? I have had a look at the full river batteries and they appeared to be good. Might have to rethink the direction I was heading, although the optima's can accept charge alot quicker than the full river, so I guess it depends on how you want to use it.

[Symo]

Hopefully I'll get the same result outta my Optima Symo. Battery totally dead after leaving an internal map light on whilst being away on holiday...

Make sure to put it on a descent 3 or 6 stage charger when home.

[craigm]

Hopefully I'll get the same result outta my Optima Symo. Battery totally dead after leaving an internal map light on whilst being away on holiday...

[Symo]

My optima was drained flat by two fridges in 14 hours, it was reading about 8v, idled the prado for 30 mins and it was sitting at 13.2v, I then just ran a freezer off it and only needed 15min idle a day to stay full. Fastest recharge I have ever seen.

[MelbournePark]

So why did you cross off the optima? Curious as im about to pull the trigger on buying one or two for the prado??

Firstly, this is just my opinion, and its not the opinion of a professional who is involved with batteries and electrical systems in vehicles. Optima is part of the biggest battery group in the world I think, and no doubt they have been very good batteries.

Now - also these factors were directed for comparing with other AGM batteries not so called "wet" non AGM batteries (and yes I know some "wet sealed marine or rugged batteries are toughened with fibreglass which is likely therefor AGM construction). Leigh W has made in this thread explicit about the value of "wet" marine and such batteries too, but the factors following refer to issues with an AGM battery comparison. So .. - IMO :

- Marketing hype. I think they use the differentiated marketing tool a lot but they don't back up much data and real detail.

- Quality rumours. Johnson transferred production to Mexico and there have been reports of quality issues. However perhaps these issues were in the early days of the production transfer, and I've had no issues with mine.

- Pricing and warranty. Once quite expensive, their prices have come down a lot but also their warranty data is not provided on their Australian web site. The site where I bought my second Optima has a warranty says a warranty of three years for personal use and two years for the greatest AH model, the 31 series.

--- Off topic - I should more about this because I've bought two in the last 18 months (a 55AH for my wife's lexus RX and a 66AH for my 90 Prado). I think I'll keep the 17 year old 90 its worth so little (bought it brand new) and maybe my 22 year old will take it and camp alongside my 150. ---

- Technology - IMO they are orientated towards starting power (the cold crank power) rather than to deep cycle. This IMO is not good because in order to get cranking power, you have to have thinner lead plates which enhances reactitivity and hence output, and thinner lead lowers battery life. I presume they have wound thinner lead likely towards the end of its wound pillar - but their construction detail is not explained in detail IMO so I've made my own conclusions.

- Form Factor - Due to the twin 3 towers (6 wound tubes in all) the battery has air between each tower (one the outside of the battery hence its tubular appearance), which wastes volume that could otherwise be used. A rectangular battery with rectangular lead plates has little wasted space. This is not an issue probably with most installations but for the Prado 150 with its air conditioning piping restricting battery length, form factor (in the Prado's case battery length) is an issue for me and IMO the Optima lacks performance for its length.

- Weight per Amp Hours - the Optima doesn't rate that well IMO. Since reserve power is my issue, and Prados are said to be weight sensitive in their front battery carrier area, AH per kg is a big issue IMO.

That all being said, I think an Optima makes a good starting battery in a Prado, due to its high cranking power and it benefits from also from reserve power if a battery controller is installed so that its reserve power can be accessed without threatening starting ability. But even for that I doubt I'd choose one now.

I also have yet to finalise my thinking ... I have yet to evaluate Lithium Iron Oxide, and I haven't cancelled that technology out yet because I intend keeping my vehicle for at least 10 years, I like a battery that ages less, and the 80% Depth of Charge ability of a Lithium, plus its linear power which means less current flow being necessary, plus its light weight and fast charge, makes it worth while considering its high downsides of cost, lack of warranty and integration charge issues.

I can post some comparisons of lead acid batteries when I have more certain data, but as an example, look at the FullRiver range of AGM batteries, which have variances in their cold cranking outputs per KG. Their batteries show that there are weight benefits in having lower cold cranking power.

[drivesafe]

Hi Prone, I have set up a number of lithium battery systems now and while what you did with the Optima ( I’ll bet it was a Yellowtop ) will work, if you had had any other lead acid battery, you would have had a continual current draw from the lithium battery to a standard lead acid battery.

An Optima Yellowtop ( and some of the Bluetops ) has an open circuit fully charge voltage of 13.1v, but all other lead acid batteries have an open circuit voltage of 12.7v, and this lower voltage will mean the lead acid continually draws on the lithium.

I have worked with both types of set up and it is normally much safer to keep the two types of batteries separated.

[Prone]

Lithium batteries are charge sensitive and MUST be charged correctly or they will have a VERY short life.

They require a separate setup and must not be used in parallel with lead acid batteries, which makes them more of an orphan type battery. than something that is RV friendly.

However lithium batteries can be quite useful for charging a lead acid battery. On our last trip I managed to let the aux battery, an Optima 55Ah in the car get quite low. It was being used by the fridge in the car and we had been stationary for a few days.

The lithiums in the Van were pretty full from solar so with a little jiggery I connected the aux car battery in parallel with the Van lithiums. With all the cabling from back of van to front of car the current was about 15A. After a few hours the Aux battery was up to the 13.2V (nominal) of the lithiums and the current near zero. The Victron suggested that about 50Ah had been transferred which is probably about right as the aux battery is a 55Ah unit and the fridge was still connected. I left the batteries connected in parallel for a day and noted that the current into the Optima stayed about zero so all the load was being taken by the lithium batteries in the Van.

Based on this it would appear that if you do parallel lithium and lead acid the lead acid battery is only there for the ride and will sit there floating at about 13.2V. I suspect the recharge current would get quite high if the cables between the batteries are shorter than I had.

Cheers
Prone

[AussieAndy]

Well, it has happened with racing cars. They all use Lithium, and have done so for years.

If Lithium was the same cost as lead acid, most would choose Lithium. I think you are talking about cost / performance, rather than the most suitable battery. As it stands, Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries compared to Lead Acid, have a number of advantages: They are much lighter due to their higher density, they last longer, they don't sulphate, they charge quicker, they release greater energy, they are much less heat sensitive, they are more compact, their voltage is more linear under usage, they are fully enclosed and don't vent toxic gases.

They cost much more though and that is the real issue.

Anyhow, this is a Prado forum and despite my ignorance I have gathered a list of batteries that might do the job in the front of a Prado 150 series. In doing so, I have come across a number of errors in published details of batteries too, so I've even rung some to the suppliers and manufacturers to confirm details, and that has not been easy.

Curiously too I've crossed off my preferred list the brand of battery that I have bought this year for two vehicles - namely the Optima.

I'll post the list here when I've got some confirmation of capacity on a couple of batteries, although I think a table is not possible to list here? Advise would be welcome on table posting ...

Another issue that has surprised me somewhat is warranty. Warranties vary, and are restricted in some cases. For instance with one made in Australia brand, their AGM batteries despite featuring more rugged construction, are not warrantied for under the bonnet usage. With various industrial and semi industrial batteries, their warranties are restricted too lesser times, I think because in industrial usage their cycles are much greater than when being used in a Prado. The warranties are an issue unto themselves I think!

Cheers

So why did you cross off the optima? Curious as im about to pull the trigger on buying one or two for the prado??