The 150 series Dual Battery Guide

[drivesafe]

Lithium batteries are charge sensitive and MUST be charged correctly or they will have a VERY short life.

They require a separate setup and must not be used in parallel with lead acid batteries, which makes them more of an orphan type battery. than something that is RV friendly.

[MelbournePark]

There have been a number of batter types that were going to make lead acid batteries
obsolete, it hasn't happened yet.

Well, it has happened with racing cars. They all use Lithium, and have done so for years.

If Lithium was the same cost as lead acid, most would choose Lithium. I think you are talking about cost / performance, rather than the most suitable battery. As it stands, Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries compared to Lead Acid, have a number of advantages: They are much lighter due to their higher density, they last longer, they don't sulphate, they charge quicker, they release greater energy, they are much less heat sensitive, they are more compact, their voltage is more linear under usage, they are fully enclosed and don't vent toxic gases.

They cost much more though and that is the real issue.

Anyhow, this is a Prado forum and despite my ignorance I have gathered a list of batteries that might do the job in the front of a Prado 150 series. In doing so, I have come across a number of errors in published details of batteries too, so I've even rung some to the suppliers and manufacturers to confirm details, and that has not been easy.

Curiously too I've crossed off my preferred list the brand of battery that I have bought this year for two vehicles - namely the Optima.

I'll post the list here when I've got some confirmation of capacity on a couple of batteries, although I think a table is not possible to list here? Advise would be welcome on table posting ...

Another issue that has surprised me somewhat is warranty. Warranties vary, and are restricted in some cases. For instance with one made in Australia brand, their AGM batteries despite featuring more rugged construction, are not warrantied for under the bonnet usage. With various industrial and semi industrial batteries, their warranties are restricted too lesser times, I think because in industrial usage their cycles are much greater than when being used in a Prado. The warranties are an issue unto themselves I think!

Cheers

[drivesafe]

There have been a number of batter types that were going to make lead acid batteries
obsolete, it hasn't happened yet.

x2

[LeighW]

There have been a number of batter types that were going to make lead acid batteries
obsolete, it hasn't happened yet.

[MelbournePark]

Problem is one faulty battery in a parallel group can lead to premature failure of the other batteries.
...

Yes, I guess in boats they must manage that issue somehow ... they have quite a lot of electronics in big motor boats, and battery costs in those (which run fridges and computers and spend a lot of time moored) are quite high.

Since I have been able to obtain a graph from Optima showing expected number of recharge cycles
compared to depth of discharge, and I would suspect you haven't either, the only way to tell
would be to do some testing.

I've just read reviews ... and they Optima advantages were not in their life or performance, but in their ability to charge at lower rates. Evidently typical deep cycle AGMs really do need a decent voltage.

As far as Optima go, I have bought two in the last year - one for my wife's RX350 Lexus, and another for my 90 series Prado. I am therefor not against them!

However ... for a 150, one of the issues with a front installation, is the bulk of the battery. And the column/tubular design of the Optima means that it resembles 6 tubes vertically placed. This means that in between each tube, is air. And hence, the battery is bulkier that square section batteries. So for space issues, I suspect its not the best choice.

I'd bet in 5 years time, a Lithium Iron Phosphate (or similar tech version of Lithium) will be the easy choice. In fact, Lithium batteries cells are about the same cost as straight lead acid. The problem is, that the electronic management systems the batteries require to maintain balance between the cells and also to prevent overcharging - which kills them - is not a mature industry and hence there are profit margins in such technologies. So people buy battery cells from China, and then source the casings etc and create the management systems, package all those together and make a big profit if their marketing is good. I suspect that as time goes forward such abnormal profits will leave Lithium leaving more price effective Lithium batteries.
[/QUOTE]

...
You can recharge a Marine Pro from 50% SOC to 100% in about 120 minutes, that's quick enough for me!

But not for me ! Its the price and weight that temps me though.

Funny thing is that if I put in two dual batteries, and bought a Lithium jump starter pack, that would be cheap and reliable. Perhaps I wouldn't need the management electronics with a Lithium jump starter pack, which can be handy anyway as theyr are very light and can tolerate run flat and recharging well.

Incidentally - I have a Mercedes B class 200Turbo - and it has the battery inside the car. It's in front of the driver's seat. When you say auto manufacturers don't put batteries inside cars - well, they do it seems. At least Mercedes did with its A and B class vehicles. The twin floorpan (now gone with their cheaper new modelprovided a good place to put a battery. There is a substantial gap in the top of the twin floor ban there, and in front of the battery, is large and open fuse box without a cover on it. There is air between the battery sides and the fuse box. The battery is very solidly mounted, I don't know what it sits on, but there is no battery box. Just a 20mm piece of foam on the top of the whole area which covers the battery, an air space and then the fuses, and then a carpeted on one side (for the vehicle floor) which on the underside of the floor next to the battery foam barrier is just straight injection moulded plastic.

[LeighW]

Firstly the issue with redundancy - some would claim that more batteries is more fault tolerant, because if one fails, you then have the others. This is pretty basic fault tolerance. Because in a battery, if a cell fails, then the battery fails. So logically, more 12 vault batteries is more fault tolerant."

Problem is one faulty battery in a parallel group can lead to premature failure of the other batteries.

As far as Optima goes and the fault deep charge issue - they can sustain less recharges than batteries intended for purely deep cycle - at least from my reading of the statistics with various other deep cycle AGM batteries.

Since I have been able to obtain a graph from Optima showing expected number of recharge cycles
compared to depth of discharge, and I would suspect you haven't either, the only way to tell
would be to do some testing.

As far as the Marine Pros - their negative issues for me, is that they do not re-charge as quickly as a glass matt AGM battery. The same slower re-charge is also an issue for Gel batteries. In my situation, I want batteries to avoid having to start the motor. So if the motor is re-started, then I'd like the re-charge to take a short time. So AGM has an advantage for me on re-charge.

You can recharge a Marine Pro from 50% SOC to 100% in about 120 minutes, that's quick enough for me!

[MelbournePark]

Optimas will accept higher charge currents at lower voltages but still like higher voltages to fully charge them. Optima also state that you can discharge the battery to 0% SOC without damaging the battery, if that is not true deep cycle I don't know what is. PS that is what Optima state, as to the validity of their claim?

Firstly the issue with redundancy - some would claim that more batteries is more fault tolerant, because if one fails, you then have the others. This is pretty basic fault tolerance. Because in a battery, if a cell fails, then the battery fails. So logically, more 12 vault batteries is more fault tolerant.

I your tearing your hair out - most of mine fell out when I got married!

As far as Optima goes and the fault deep charge issue - they can sustain less recharges than batteries intended for purely deep cycle - at least from my reading of the statistics with various other deep cycle AGM batteries.

My reading: indicated that a dual starter / deep cylce battery has different thicknesses of lead. A starting battery has thinner lead, allowing greater starting power. In a combination deep cycle / starting battery, there are variances in the lead thickness. The thinner parts allow greater starting voltage. Those thinner parts also fail sooner. A purely deep cycle battery has thicker lead to surface ratio, and hence suffers less degradation and thereby can have more recharges.

Incidentally, I presume the Optima winds its lead in different thicknesses (the Optima being circular plates wound I think rather than rectangular panels in most other such batteries) hence giving it easier to manufacture dual functionality. However I have not seen drawings or one broken down - its just my presumption.

As far as the Marine Pros - their negative issues for me, is that they do not re-charge as quickly as a glass matt AGM battery. The same slower re-charge is also an issue for Gel batteries. In my situation, I want batteries to avoid having to start the motor. So if the motor is re-started, then I'd like the re-charge to take a short time. So AGM has an advantage for me on re-charge.

The negatives on AGM are cost and weight, both big issues it seems. Being wet and more susceptible to leaks and gas outputs etc is also a negative, especially if out of the engine bay.

[drivesafe]

Should the isolator be as close as possible to the starter battery?

Hi 404pug, as amts posted, that isolator is already giving you problems and the problems are common to ordinary VSR isolators that are mounted any distance from the cranking battery.

If you move the isolator to a location near as possible to the cranking battery, you will resolve the problem of the isolator oscillating on and off, if batteries are low.

You will need a circuit breaker at the cranking battery, the auxiliary batter and the trailer battery.

If you connect your solar anywhere other than at the cranking battery, you will charge the auxiliary and house batteries but not the cranking battery.

Connect the solar to the cranking battery and you will then eventually charge all your batteries.

Should the isolator be as close as possible to the starter battery?

[404pug]

Thanks Leigh. The solar all makes sense to my non electrics brain. Re. the trailer you are saying have a dedicated set of cables from starting battery to rear Anderson plug rather than run a cable from the battery box inside the car? Neil

[LeighW]

Your simple isolator and at least 13mm2 cable to the anderson plug will work,
you will also need a booster diode. The battery in the rear is separate
from the camper ie not normally connected to the camper, so to charge it
from solar you will need to connect solar to the battery in the box.

Trailercan be charged by plugging solar into the trailer anderson plug.

You could make a cable up to connect both batteries together and to the solar
panel if you wanted too.

[404pug]

Anyone???

[404pug]

Having waded through all 14 pages of this epic I have a related question. I have a 120 V6 with an ABR battery box with a 105 amp inside the car for all of the reasons above ie no weight on the front guard, only use it once or twice a year on trips etc. As you are aware these have a built in isolator and suitable wiring. It works fine and only occasionally has the isolator fluttered due to low volts or whatever. The fix for this is to transfer the fridge to the car cigarette lighter to give the battery box a better chance to recharge. NOW the issue is that I have just got a camper trailer with a large deep cycle battery. 1] How do I charge it? A dedicated cable from the main battery with a nearby isolator to the Anderson plug? 2] A cable to the trailer Anderson plug from the Battery box which has an Anderson plug outlet. 3] I also just got an Aldi 120 amp solar panel for those times that I am sitting put. Which of the 3 batteries do I connect it to [ the one in the car runs the fridge so always goes down first] or does it not matter if all 3 are connected together? My brain hurts! neil

[snapper49]

Generally I wouldn't mount any vehicle in a car

I wouldn't do that either

[LeighW]

Some of the redarc isolators have a linking ability.

Marine setups are a different kettle of fish they will generally be running higher voltages then cars, ie batteries in series rather than 5 or six in parallel, easier to equalise series cells.

Most professional RV power installation companies would tell yo to go for lower cell count, ie use 6V batteries with large amp hour capacities to keep the cell count down, of course if you have to have the room to house them, and most don't so a compromise solution is required.

Optimas will accept higher charge currents at lower voltages but still like higher voltages to fully charge them. Optima also state that you can discharge the battery to 0% SOC without damaging the battery, if that is not true deep cycle I don't know what is. PS that is what Optima state, as to the validity of their claim?

I've used Optimas, other AGM and flooded, still would recommend Century Marine pros above most others, fair deep cycle capacity, cheap, can take physical abuse, heat and can be topped up if required. Wouldn't mount inside a vehicle though unless it is in a battery box that is vented to the outside.

Generally I wouldn't mount any battery inside a vehicle, I have seen all types of batteries leak and cause considerable damage.

Generally if a car manufacturer mounts a battery in a car it will be in a battery box mounted in the floor of the vehicle with a sealed cover. If the battery leaks it drains through the bottom of the battery box.