The 150 series Dual Battery Guide

[mjrandom]

All good here too Leigh. although I do have a dead 2 1/2 yr old Optima blue top sitting on my garage floor as a result of a failure earlier this year as a result of a faulty Alternator. This occurred following a trip to LCMP and it is suspected that too much water and mud engress into the alt caused the failure...

It didn't come back after reconditioning? Bum.

[LeighW]

Thanks for the feedback so far guys, I haven't had any customer complaints but
thought I would post up on here and get the good or the bad and see how booster
diodes are performing now they have been around for awhile.

[craigm]

All good here too Leigh. although I do have a dead 2 1/2 yr old Optima blue top sitting on my garage floor as a result of a failure earlier this year as a result of a faulty Alternator. This occurred following a trip to LCMP and it is suspected that too much water and mud engress into the alt caused the failure...

[BlakMoth]

I've had no problems either Leigh. All good here.


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[120D4D]

Hi all,

Before marketing my booster units for the Prado I did extensive testing in my Prado and others to ensure the unit would not have an adverse affect on the vehicles cranking battery, Extensive testing indicated that the use of the boosters in the Prado would not cause any adverse issues.

Now that members have been using booster diodes for quite some time I'm after some feedback as to did I get it right or wrong?

Has anyone had a premature battery failure that can be directly attributed to the use of a commercially available booster diode?

Admin if this post breaches any rules can you please delete or reword till appropriate.

Cheers
Leigh

As they say Leigh 'no news is good news'!

I would expect that if anyone had any problems then You (and based on the usual internet forum negativity logic) and the rest of PP would have certainly heard about it by now!!

I'm a happy user and everything is good for me - but only around a year in so far from your oldest customer.

[BlakMoth]

I just can't believe this is still going....


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[LeighW]

Hi all,

Before marketing my booster units for the Prado I did extensive testing in my Prado and others to ensure the unit would not have an adverse affect on the vehicles cranking battery, Extensive testing indicated that the use of the boosters in the Prado would not cause any adverse issues.

Now that members have been using booster diodes for quite some time I'm after some feedback as to did I get it right or wrong?

Has anyone had a premature battery failure that can be directly attributed to the use of a commercially available booster diode?

Admin if this post breaches any rules can you please delete or reword till appropriate.

Cheers
Leigh

[LeighW]

Have you a link regarding the:

"Optima also do publish their full cycle life, which is 350 full cycles. They do that in the USA. Quote:

"Yellow Top has been verified in Life Cycle testing to withstand up to 350 complete discharges".

I don't know about you, but to me that makes a joke out of there statement on the Australian website that you can discharge the battery to 0% SOC without any adverse affects on the battery!

[MelbournePark]

Hi Leigh and some years ago, at least 8 years ago, I did come across a graph for Optima Yellowtop batteries, but, as you posted, it is almost impossible to get any additional info from Optima, beyond whats on their web site.

From “MEMORY” it was something like 1200 cycles to 0% SoC ( 10.5v ) and 2,000 to 20% SoC ( 11.58v )

I personally never “deliberately" discharge batteries blow 20% SoC.

I have tested starting many types of vehicles using an Optima D34 ( the one now being used as my wife’s Seca’s starting battery ) and every new vehicle I tested, started from the Optima, with a voltage of 11.58v or 20%.

The largest motor tested is my TDV8 and the Optima had no problem firing it up.

I have not tested this on a Toyota V8 yet.

That may have been a third party test / review? There are several of those from several years ago, because the spiral AGM battery - typically Optima - was often considered the best lead acid battery for electric car usage, due to its ability to accept charge quickly and also output high amounts of charge. I could list some links!

I understand that the reason why the wound concept is different to other AGM battery performance, is because the plates are thin. While thin plates means less life and faster current flows in square plate construction, the wound plate allows very tight attachments and this provides a strong and less fragile battery than if such thin plates were put into a square construction. The use of pure lead also has it seems no downsides in the wound construction method, unlike with the square constructions.

When your Optima eventually fails, it would be interesting to open it up and measure the plate thickness! Such figures don't seem to be commonly published.

I had thought that one of the Blue Marine Optima batteries had a thicker plate thickness because it has the same AH as its yellow version but it had lower CCA, unlike the other blue v yellow versions. I say plate because the Optima only has one plate per cylinder because its one winding per cylinder rather than lots of individual square plates in other batteries.

I have read in other 4WD threads that people have used Red Optimas in 4WDs for fridge as well as starting use, and that their batteries have lasted. I think the red is just a thinner again "winding" of the lead plate. There are also reports of failures of course and some have said they don't suit northern Queensland and they regret their yellow top purchases due to hot climates.

Optima also do publish their full cycle life, which is 350 full cycles. They do that in the USA. Quote:

"Yellow Top has been verified in Life Cycle testing to withstand up to 350 complete discharges".

As you and LeighW have said that unfortunately Optima do not graph their cycle testing results. Obviously if used less the cycle life goes right up, but the degree of the extra life has lots of variables.

Optima say that their AH reading refers to their complete discharge level. There are some studies on the benefits of lower discharge and some include the Optima. IMO in many applications the Optima or its Exide equivalent are at the lower end of battery bank AGM life cycle performance, but then they are not designed as pure cycling batteries.

Re the Exide version, there was a patent chase many years ago and the Exide version does not appear to be a re-branded Optima but rather Exide makes one themselves I think. But if its made in Mexico then it would be a re-branded Optima.

IMO the benefit of the Optima in Prados is fast charge but do so one needs to have the current flow available and hence it gets back to a bottleneck analysis of how much charge and where its going and also when. The concern is that if you did have lots of current to charge the Optima, and it was in a hot day in the bush and the turbo was belting out radiated heat, the battery might get hot.

While one can fast charge a battery, IMO a few tests don't indicate the cost of doing so in battery life. The benefit of the wound construction is that it does accept fast charge, but if it goes over 51C its life will be greatly reduced.

I'll probably put both my Optimas into my 150, with the smaller one in the spare space. But if I did it again I would not go that way. They are interesting for a trailer thought that has air conditioning, matched with an 80 amp bosch alternature driven by a Honda 2000 style motor (such ones are made in Sydney). But as the number of batteries goes up the benefits of high current acceptance goes down.

Kimberley use their Lithium batteries to assist starting their 240V air con unit in the bush. Lithium can output a lot of current. Then the small Honda (even 1000iu) small generator can run the air con. But they haven't tested Optimas IMO. I think the Optima would be a good alternative for them because it can output lots of current and hence allow the air con compressor to fire up. None of the camper companies use Optimas though. I guess because fast current is not needed and they are more costly per labelled AH.

On Lithium, I asked Australian Off Road and Campsite Australia about Lithium in their campers, and they said no problems accept for their cost. They said their use is going right up, but its still a minority who ask for them and that they are not on their option list. But because they buy smart controlled Lithium batteries (I can get their name) and that the smart controls prevent any over charge issues, its no hassle for them to supply Lithiums.

[drivesafe]

Hi Leigh and some years ago, at least 8 years ago, I did come across a graph for Optima Yellowtop batteries, but, as you posted, it is almost impossible to get any additional info from Optima, beyond whats on their web site.

From “MEMORY” it was something like 1200 cycles to 0% SoC ( 10.5v ) and 2,000 to 20% SoC ( 11.58v )

I personally never “deliberately" discharge batteries blow 20% SoC.

I have tested starting many types of vehicles using an Optima D34 ( the one now being used as my wife’s Seca’s starting battery ) and every new vehicle I tested, started from the Optima, with a voltage of 11.58v or 20%.

The largest motor tested is my TDV8 and the Optima had no problem firing it up.

I have not tested this on a Toyota V8 yet.

[LeighW]

Yes manufactures only tell you the good side, the things they don't want you to know are they hide away in reams of text or obscure references, it is called muddying the waters.

I haven't tried it but I would be surprised if you could start a Prado with and Optima discharged to 15% SOC but again I haven't tried it. Personnel observation is the Optima cranked the Prado faster when it was new, After a few days similar to the old cranking battery, old original cranking battery would fire the car up after 4 weeks or so the Optima won't.

Optima say a lot of things on there website but don't show data to support it. Yes they state on the Australian website discharging the battery to 0% SOC won't hurt the battery, interestingly I don't think they state that on the American website from memory. Try getting a depth of discharge versus expected life cycles graph out of them. I never could they just respond with that is sensitive commercial information. One would think if it is as good as they say they would be happy to spread the news. Personally I would not be discharging it to 0% SOC on a regular basis.

Drive safe may have more input regarding depth of discharge versus life cycles as he appears to have used a lot more of them than I have.

[BlakMoth]

The 150 series Dual Battery Guide

Perfect AJ


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[Fred63]

thanks AJ
Thats what i needed

[AJ120]

Cheers Andrew

[MelbournePark]

...
For example, you go on about how Optima batteries can be damaged from high current charging because they will heat up, then you rant on about 80 amp and 120 portable batteries chargers as if these would cook an Optima....

No - I am interested in such a charger for charging at the campsite, with a Camper Van. A quantum / Kimberley / Australian Campsite / VistaRV or something like that. Some of those churn through the amp hours.

Batteries are simple chemistry and physic, I did both at year 12 and won a full scholarship to Uni. The chemistry in lead acid hasn't changed much, mostly in valves and the use of glass fibre, gel, and the construction issues. You don't like non professionals but I can find things out too, and i have consulted for a major manufacturer here.

Your good at attacking personally but its best to be attack the facts rather than the person IMO.

As far as Optimas go, they are the ones who talk about voiding warranties if over temp. And it makes sense. Also other AGM makers do much the same, in varying degrees. For instance FullRiver say their's should be heat shielded if in the front (I'm not sure if doing so would make a long term difference). Some don't allow some of their AGMs in the front. I have two Optimas in the front in two of my vehicles, one a 90 series petrol Prado. I had to use filler to pad out the recess to allow the factory battery braise to fit the battery. Its the 66 amp one. I have a 55 amp one too in another vehicle. Both bought in the last 18 months. Both unlike yours, made in Mexico units. I noticed too in the RX Lexus, the 55 appreciated a smart charge, which I do now on occassion. Maybe the RX needs one of LeighW's voltage fuses? The RX has started short trips and with its heated seats etc etc its no wonder the basic factory battery gave out in 40 months.


I did not say lie - you are lying yourself in making that claim.

I queried the battery weights on this thread. You - the expert - did not correct my weight estimation. I had thought the 730 would weigh close to 30kg, due to the weight of the 620 being 24 kg.

Now look at the link: http://www.centurybatteries.com.au/r.../product/ns70m

That link says the 620 weighs 24kg.

This link says the 730 weighs the same 24kg: http://www.centurybatteries.com.au/r.../product/n70zm

I have queried the manufacturers, as recently as last week, and also, 10 weeks ago.

But the error is still there.

For Prado buyers, the error is important.

The 620 weighs a bit over 18 kg though. But if it weighed, 24kg, then that would mean the 730 weighed around 30kg. In fact it weighs 24kg.

Its obviously a mistake, but it hasn't been fixed. And they continue to publish the wrong figures which for Prado owners who appreciate light weight is IMO annoying.

Granted to most its irrelevant but this Is A Prado Thread. Prado owners want to accurately calculate the battery weights for their under bonnet batteries.

Maybe you can fix it though? I can't as I've tried two times and haven't got anywhere. And I am going away.