extra fuel filter

[Davros Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close Davros]

Re: extra fuel filter

btw, what size are you using?

Hi again,
I bought 3/8" ID hose which is about the same as yours, 3/8" being 9.525mm. The fittings were supplied by my Father in Law, as he owns a large hydraulic supply company. They are 10mm OD tails, so the 3/8" ID slips over with a little push. The hose clamps are better quality than most off the shelf clamps as well. I also used fuel proof thread sealing paste, in lieu of tape.

[Foxy49 Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Foxy49]

Re: extra fuel filter

Guys ,Why the SAE30R9 fuel line ? On the uptake line, is it under pressure from the tank (pump in tank?) or is it because of the fuel qualities ? When I first saw the lines set up under the bonnet I thought that was pretty rough, long hoses flopping everywhere. It could be a bit tidier than Toyota have it . Bert, Mate your right about the size It's just that I'm an ex farmer and we all tend to go overkill .I suspect your right also about the price of the OE filter . I need to protect my engine the best way I can for as long as I can and listening to you guys has been a Godsend .Cheers Foxy

[Bert Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Bert]

Re: extra fuel filter

Hey Foxy,

you're right in stating the filter is on the suction or "vacumn" side which means pressure is not the issue. however, as the article from Gates indicates, and i quote from 2nd column 2nd paragraph ,

"SAE30R9 hose is also recommended for diesel
fuel because its fluoroelastomer tube resists
deterioration caused by some diesel fuel additives.
As refineries produce cleaner fuels and lower
allowable permeation rates during the “vehicle at
rest” condition, older hose specifications such as
SAE 30R7 are becoming less reliable. This type of
hose is no longer specified on OEM automotive
fuel applications because of stringent permeation
standards.
Therefore, Gates engineers assert that the best
choice for automotive fuel line hose applications
today is fuel injection SAE30R9 hose. For
installers, it is the best choice for reduced
comebacks and for high performance, assured
trouble free service in a changing fuel environment."

hope that makes it clearer. mind you this came out Dec 2004! why do we still have SAE30R7 in the market?

cheers,

Bert

[rob_macca67 Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close rob_macca67]

Re: extra fuel filter

Just curious, but how would Toyota prove that installing a 2nd Fuel Filter was the cause of any failures ??? They would have a hard time trying to prove that installing a 2nd 2micron filter damaged your engine.....

I spoke to the Toyota Dealer down the road & he said Toyota would have to prove that the filter was the cause..... That would be a PITA with the time thing & car being off the road, etc.

At what sort of mileage on the clock is this problem developing ???

rob

Hey Bert, a filter rated at 2 micron does have the ability to strip fuel of some of it's additives. Not so much in one filter, but when you get two filters of the same rating working together, this is definately possible. I mean 2 micron, my fart wouldn't be able to get through that, what about when you combine both of them together. As I have said in other posts on this thread, there are big problems in Europe with the 1KD-FTVs. I was lucky enough to have a conversation with a UK diesel engineer last week about some other problems in the heavy vehicle industry, the topic soon got onto smaller diesels and their problems. One of his recommendations was not to install a 2 micron filter in front of another 2 micron filter, the tolerances are just to tight. Anyway at the end of the day it's your investment but there is a reason for all the piston failures in Europe and it's quite ironic that in most cases the vehicle as been fitted with a 2 micron filter in front of gen. filter.
The Roo.

[rob_macca67 Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close rob_macca67]

Re: extra fuel filter

Yeah I know what u mean......

Do u know if u can simply swap the Filter Element in the 230R from a 2micron to a 10micron element ??

Rob, they haven't yet. Given time and the amount of money going out to warranty claims, well what can I say. Toyota Corporation will put a number of it's senior engineers and biochemists (contractors) together, set up a testing rig and see what comes out the other side with the help of computers of cause. I do believe this is happening as we speak and they will be all looking for something to do as there is no production going on in Japan at the moment. It may take up to 2 years to reach our shores, the findings that is, and whatever action will be taken, if any by Toyota Australia. Anyway, their to busy replacing injectors and supply pumps at the moment to worry about this problem, oh, and mudflaps (150 series). The problems are happening from about 50,000 kms on and 'down the road' are just like me, grease monkeys, they probably know more about your vehicle than you do, but this is an engineering problem. By installing this and that, the consumer has changed this, we better see what's going on with the design, what has changed so to speak. Most Mechanics pull a part, repair or replace, then put back together what the engineer's design, even though sometimes you think, what was this person thinking when they designed this, eg. 90 series rear suspension. And Rob, do you want the damage anyway, or the chance of it?
The Roo.

[Foxy49 Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Foxy49]

Re: extra fuel filter

Hi Bert, Mate I have ordered a meter of the proper hose, better to safe than sorry.I can see where this doubling up of the 2 micron filter is going if in doubt err on the side of caution .I haven't installed my 2nd filter as yet but I must admit I can see both sides .I have ordered a Racor 490R2 which is a 2 micron filter with a self primer but I can interchange 10 & 30 micron. Just a question, I know there are filters and there are filters .Some are of a quality paper others with fine wood chips and such like .It certainly opens a can of worms in which way to go .I'm heading for Racor which when I talk to different people seems to be the one .Having easy access could be a problem but I always preorder before I need them just saves time .Installing the 2nd filter to me is excellent insurance regardless of Toyota
I agree with ########## in regards the mudflaps I have extended mine front and rear .
Cheers Foxy

[rob_macca67 Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close rob_macca67]

Re: extra fuel filter

Agreed with the mudflaps issue even though its a bit off topic but I removed my mudflaps totally and made up my own from a piece of 1000mmX1200mmX6mm Rubber Mat ($35.00)

I agree with ########## in regards the mudflaps I have extended mine front and rear .
Cheers Foxy

[Bert Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Bert]

Re: extra fuel filter

Yes Rob,
The Roo is right. you can change the filter element to 10 microns. it will still restrict water. i suppose it does it from how the element is shaped and water molecule having "skin" will be caught and when enough of it gathers, sinks to the bottom. btw, the gen filter has no visible glass bowl ( it does have a sensor warning us ) whereas the Racor has a coloured bowl making water visible. Also from what i've read, fungus grows from water collected in fuel tanks due condensation, that being the case, we can minimise it by keeping our tanks filled asap especially during winter or humid conditions.
on the previous subject, perhaps to take the guess work out, can some one with access to a microscope with varying light and filters take a sample diesel and let us know what you find? in particluar, i'll like to know if there are globules that may be present. these may be additives necessary for proper combustion and lubrication.

cheers,

[Bert Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Bert]

Re: extra fuel filter

winter is round the corner. please have a read of the link from BP.

just be aware of this. as the article indicates, it is not an issue, provided we use up our summer diesel. it may not even be an issue in temperate metropolitan provided the temp doesn't drop too drastically.

http://www.bp.com/liveassets/bp_interne ... oblems.pdf

quoting: "WHAT ARE WINTER DIESEL PROBLEMS?
All diesel fuel contains wax. It is considered an important diesel component because of its high cetane value."

apparently when cold, this wax clogs up fuel filters. does it mean the diesel going past has a lower cetane index value? hey ##########, can we have your valued opinion on this. i'm looking at getting the 10 micron element very soon. thanks.

cheers,

Bert

[Riv39 Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close Riv39]

Re: extra fuel filter

winter is round the corner. please have a read of the link from BP.

just be aware of this. as the article indicates, it is not an issue, provided we use up our summer diesel. it may not even be an issue in temperate metropolitan provided the temp doesn't drop too drastically.

http://www.bp.com/liveassets/bp_interne ... oblems.pdf

quoting: "WHAT ARE WINTER DIESEL PROBLEMS?
All diesel fuel contains wax. It is considered an important diesel component because of its high cetane value."

apparently when cold, this wax clogs up fuel filters. does it mean the diesel going past has a lower cetane index value? hey ##########, can we have your valued opinion on this. i'm looking at getting the 10 micron element very soon. thanks.

cheers,

Bert

Bert, this quote from the article is interesting:

"BP supplies Diesel fuel that is appropriate for the season. This is done by varying the cloud point of diesel fuel depending on month and location. These are defined in the Australian Standard AS 3570-1998 for Automotive Diesel Fuel. Therefore every time you purchase diesel fuel from BP you are guaranteed that the product will be appropriate for the month and location as defined by the Australian Standard."

Without reading that AS, I reckon if you live say in Sydney, then the changes to fuel content would be minimal from month to month. Given this and the fact that I normally fill up about every two - three weeks (half tank) I assume that I might be replacing my fuel just often enough. However this may depend on where I fill up and how much diesel they sell. I doubt that individual servos ad additives themselves to counter what existing stock of fuel they have. Also if you live in colder climates you might need to watch it a bit more closely I guess.

All interesting stuff and I must say I am glad I switched to BP as I rekon the other supplies don't supply this much info. I just wish they would guarantee 50+ cetane, but at least they warrant their fuel which is something.

[Bert Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Bert]

Re: extra fuel filter

Riv39,

interesting indeed. i wonder when wax coagulates, does the cetane index value drop. if it does, by how much. we need to maintain at the minimum 48 as per our Owner's manual page 596, otherwise "knocking" occurs and the injectors and engine will suffer.

cheers,

Bert

[mjrandom Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close mjrandom]

Re: extra fuel filter

Has anyone who has fitted one of these extra filters had any feedback from their dealer or better still Toyota? I was looking to do just this on my 120 about two years ago. The dealer was fine with it and while I was there they contacted Tojo and was told that Toyota Australia would not support the fitting of an extra filter/water separator. Rang Berrima diesel and they agreed with this sentiment. Just interested that's all.

[Foxy49 Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Foxy49]

Re: extra fuel filter

Hi guys just a suggestion regarding the wax build up, on some of the filter systems you have the option of heaters included in the filter system. The 460 Racor has that option .It seems to be the thing in the US especially for winter so you could be on the money in regards to the wax .It seems to be the go if you use the ethanol blend of diesel fuel having a preheating system . I'm wondering Roo would it be warranted to have one on full time, setting the temp at the optimum temp for the best combustion even using the flash lube ?? Foxy

[Foxy49 Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Foxy49]

Re: extra fuel filter

Roo, Mate I wholly agree with you on bio fuel. I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole .and thank you for the extra info too .Just looking and asking for all options excellent Cheers Foxy

[rob_macca67 Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close rob_macca67]

Re: extra fuel filter

Well..... I had a chat to my cousin who works for a filtering company and has being supplying Racor Filters for years to customers and never had any problems with them at all..... I mentioned about the 10micron & 2micron issue and they said don't use a 10micron on common rails diesels....unless u change the filters regularly. They have spoken to Racor Reps regarding this issue and even they said that 2 micron filter will not strip out any of t he lubricates out of the fuel.... They said how can u strip or filter out a liquid (hydro-Carbons) out of a liquid (hydro-Carbons)... can't be done using filters, no matter how fine. They used the example of mixing Diesel and Kero ( or any hydrocarbon based liquid) together.... There is no way u can separate them (ie the hydro Carbons) w/o using the cracking process.... same way they were created in the 1st place.

I've been struggling with this idea of a 2nd 2micron filter causing damage by filtering/stripping out some of the lubricates out of the fuel.... as logically, it just doesn't seem to make sense....So, after talking to these fellas who have been in the Filtering scene for 30+yrs, I will be keeping my 2 micron Racor filter.

They went on to say that they themselves use the same setup on all their common rail Diesels w/o any problems and have had excellent run out of their vehicles with no recorded damage.....

If someone can technically explain to me how a 2nd 2micron filter can cause damage, I open to listening/reading it in order to help me change my thinking.....


cheers....

rob