Would you pull me out?

[Anth120playdo Banned Find all posts View Profile Close Anth120playdo]

So just finally ####, seeing as you are so sure about your 14mm round "recovery points" would you buy and use unrated D shackles from Bunnings? After all if they are 14mm thick then surely they must be good enough? Surely you wouldn't have double standards an
Ns say they are no good...... Would you?

Hopefully we can catch up when you guys head to the Simmo and I can spend some more time telling you why I am right and you are wrong

I am heading really remote for a few days from tomorrow so should be an interesting read when I get net access again.

Cheers Andrew

Working backwards, because im not sure if I will ever get through it. Andrew jeez you have been busy.
You know, you can't win? Lol........

14mm thick d shackles at Bunnings are made in china, they might be ok to a point, I payed $5 extra
& bought 4.75t bow shackles which where clearly designed to do a lot more than a standard 14mm d shackle.
Its much like the Toyota 4x4 (Prado example) tow hooks, clearly designed to do a LOT MORE THAN vehicles with tie Down points.

Yes, look forward to learning more from obviously smart bloke, with more experience than me.

[Anth120playdo Banned Find all posts View Profile Close Anth120playdo]

My recovery points don't rely on any weld other than the factory ones on the chassis, the same as everyone else here regardless of what recovery points you use. Mine have the advantage of 4 bolts per side including being bolted to the chassis behind any welds. Also my hooks are rated to 10,000lb each for what that's worth.

Edit. Just to restate, no one has rated recovery points!
Cheers Andrew

They sound better than factory welded tow points. Just, maybe.......
12.9 bolts? Nice, can't wait to see those suckers.

[Anth120playdo Banned Find all posts View Profile Close Anth120playdo]

It's because of the way they are welded, as I said before not all welds are equal, that includes the type of joint before its welded. Thats one of the problems with the argument about still relying on chassis welds with the bolt on recovery points. They are different types of welds, welding similar thickness steels instead of welding thick to thin. A far superior joint much more likely to have a good weld and requiring far less skill to produce a good result.

Welding 14mm round to 2mm flat and having to weld into the deep V like on the early 120's isn't an ideal joint, it would be really easy to have a god looking weld with no strength in this situation.

Cheers Andrew

Not ideal, but easy welding for the ppl in the Toyota factory in Japan.
It's like John west, they reject bad tuna, well Toyota reject bad welders, like from Mitsubishi not you of corse.
When they get rejected, the get on a boat, come to Australia, & you know the rest.
I wouldn't say far superior till we tested it.
Arguably more weld in the older design. But I would have to take a closer investigation to have further accurate comments. So I went for some comedy instead. Hope your enjoying the trip.

[Anth120playdo Banned Find all posts View Profile Close Anth120playdo]

An interesting point, but I wonder what people on the rear for a recovery point? Most people (not me) use the tow hitch, have you looked at the thickness of the material that is bolted too? It's not very thick.

I know #### wouldn't use his towbar, after all that is bolted on with only six crappy 8.8 bolts, that's 2 less than front recovery points using a bridle

Oh and your towbar is actually rated, but only to 2.5 tonne, so all those people wanting to use correctly rated points would never consider using the towbar would they?

Cheers Andrew

I am well aware of the tow hitch being rated to 2.5tonne.
This is what I use.
Yes it's only bolted to the chassis.
6 bolts to one centre point is pretty good. But like you said crappy bolts that are larger in size.
People should be aware of that point.
The good news is, the rear plastic bar is your dampener if you try to rip it off.
I do consider the front 2 welded points combined by equaliser stronger than the tow receiver.
However, a centre pull is always the best and it is connected central to a large section of the chassis.
Once again, I believe they are safe, as always when used with due caution like any recovery.

[Anth120playdo Banned Find all posts View Profile Close Anth120playdo]

Yes I agree it's all opinion, it's what those opinions are based on that really matters.

In my case, I have extensive welding experience despite my lack of formal qualification.
Only recently I had testing done on some of my welding for rating purposes and they passed easily.
I have worked in a car factory, as a welder, as a welding trainer, and also on prototype design construction and destructive testing.
I have been trained in correct recovery procedure in lauding snatching and requirements for recovery points. I have been trained to be a trainer and have trained others in to correctly do snatch recoveries.
I also have extensive experience in vehicle recovery that started as a child when my father ran amongst other things a vehicle recovery service for bogged vehicles, and has continued to the present day being involved in many safe recoveries.

Having said all that #### I am not sure what experience you have to say that welded tow loops are good for recoveries? Do you even know how to weld? Do you know how to tell a good weld from a bad weld by visual check? Do you understand that not all welds are equal?

Maybe if you did your opinion might be a bit different!

I'll keep working my way through this thread and add more thoughts as I go

Cheers Andrew

By all means, it sounds like you have much more experience than me.
Still not enough or qualified to tell anyone they are no good?

It's simple, look at them & you can see they were obviously designed for soooo much more than tieing down a vehicle.
As a vehicle tech, I know what most tie Down points look like.
This is the view of a least 2 4x4 clubs, I have spoken with their members in the last 2 days.
Also one 4x4 training facility said that prados & hiluxes are some of the best points & are satisfactory.
All 3 of those organisations, recommend using a equaliser strap, why wouldn't you? A centre pull is best.

I cant weld as good as you, but I can get good penetration, just not regularly enough.
Look for penetration. Check undercut & overlap. Well if its got cracks its bad. Things like camper trailers welds will suffer fatigue. That why you need to check them regularly, for cracking along the welds.
As you would know welding is very complicated. You are the best, let not try to debate that one, YOU DO WIN THAT ONE :-).

[Anth120playdo Banned Find all posts View Profile Close Anth120playdo]

Gee hasn't a lot happened in this thread while I am out in the desert without Internet! Got some now so will work my way through it.

I agree Steve that snatching is a last resort and often dangerous

I will tell you how to set up a snatch damper correctly Steve, just keen to see if anyone else who is sharing there wisdom on this topic actually knows how to correctly do a snatch recovery before I spill the beans

Cheers Andrew

Ok first reply last, I know how to set it up correctly, but that's only based on the same ways rules 99.9% of all 4x4 every bodies do it.
I'm not sure what you've got for us, but I'm looking forward to be able to say sh!t what an extra gret idea, spread the word. But be warned, it could be another debate lol.....

Ok that's it, that will keep him busy when he's back in range

[Peterpilot Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close Peterpilot]

All 3 of those organisations, recommend using a equaliser strap, why wouldn't you? A centre pull is best.

I know for a fact that AJ recommends using both points with an equaliser strap, as do I. If you look at AJs recovery hooks, you will see they are ideally set up for an equaliser strap or bridle

[BrettM Member Find all posts View Profile Close BrettM]

Sorry AJ but if you think a large company like Toyota don't have a proper system in place for QA/QC in regards to chassis welding and the procedures then I think your kidding your self. I'm guessing you have been out of the car factory sector for a while, most of the welding is done by robots now and computer monitored. They might not inspect every cm of weld on every chassis but a certain percentage would be.

[Trekrider Banned Find all posts View Profile Close Trekrider]

For reference, these are the instructions provided for Snatch Recovery by a Government and Mine Site approved training organisation here in WA:



Government agencies here in WA now require safety straps like these on all snatch straps as well:

[AJ120 Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close AJ120]

Sorry AJ but if you think a large company like Toyota don't have a proper system in place for QA/QC in regards to chassis welding and the procedures then I think your kidding your self. I'm guessing you have been out of the car factory sector for a while, most of the welding is done by robots now and computer monitored. They might not inspect every cm of weld on every chassis but a certain percentage would be.

Yes it's been a while since I was in the factory which was also run by a large multinational company, but remember we are talking about vehicles that could be 10 years old which is not so far removed my my time welding up chassis! The point is though, do you know what standards were set at the time? Was it done by a robot, a qualified welder or some bloke who only knows if you pull the trigger it makes sparks?

Truth is none of us really know, so we have no way of saying that those welded points are good enough. A bolt and a laser cut recovery point from a known grade of steel is eminently repeatable with know and consistent levels of strength. That's not to say that the welded loops will break, but if you are giving advise or running an event where you need to set standards, the standards need to be known and as consistent as possible.

Cheers Andrew

[D4D Addicted PP Member Find all posts View Profile Close D4D]

.. but if you are giving advise or running an event where you need to set standards, the standards need to be known and as consistent as possible.

Problem is that would count people out like me as I only have the ARB loops on the front. I agree you need to set standards but to say I can't come on a trip because I don't have the correct recovery points on the front is a little silly. I'd prefer to winch out anyway...

[Anth120playdo Banned Find all posts View Profile Close Anth120playdo]

Yes it's been a while since I was in the factory which was also run by a large multinational company, but remember we are talking about vehicles that could be 10 years old which is not so far removed my my time welding up chassis! The point is though, do you know what standards were set at the time? Was it done by a robot, a qualified welder or some bloke who only knows if you pull the trigger it makes sparks?

Truth is none of us really know, so we have no way of saying that those welded points are good enough. A bolt and a laser cut recovery point from a known grade of steel is eminently repeatable with know and consistent levels of strength. That's not to say that the welded loops will break, but if you are giving advise or running an event where you need to set standards, the standards need to be known and as consistent as possible.

Cheers Andrew

I think bolt manufacture can be as unreliable or in fact worse than welds.
I can ask the bolt bloke.
These are TOYOtas, quality all the way! Except for d4d injectors.

Trekrider, yep pretty standard stuff everyone & organisation goes by.

Cumon Andrew none of us know, please tell.

[AJ120 Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close AJ120]

So ####, the fact that you use the towbar at the rear proves you are confident in the use of 8.8 bolts, in fact only six as opposed to eight, so I can't see your issue with bolt on points. For the record I don't consider 8.8 bolts to be crappy. Don't worry about upgrading your towbar bolts as the nuts inside the chassis will still be the lower grade

I always recommend the use of a bridle, at both ends which will give a centre pull. Silly if you don't unless its a gentle pull as opposed to a full snatch.

Interesting those procedures you posted Trekky, are they really what they currently teach? Point six was outdated years ago! Testing has been done and we show the video of the testing during our club training sessions that shows are dampness are next to useless. The fact they say wet might help a bit, assuming you have water to spare.

We teach people to attach dampners at 1/3 and 2/3 on the snatch strap, the dampners need to be heavy! We use 5kg of chain for each dampner tied to the snatch strap using a Prusik knot! You don't believe me do you

If you are brave enough test the theory for yourself, attach the snatch strap to the rear of your Prado as you would for a recovery, then place a jacket, or a towel, or a hessian bag or whatever you would normally use for a dampner in your usual position, then attach a shackle to the other end and with the strap at full extension throw the shackle (attached to the strap) as hard as you can at the rear window of your pride and joy. Now your throwing will be no where near as powerful as what would happen during a snatch recovery so your pride and joy should be safe......... Shouldn't it? Make sure your insurance is up to date before attempting that experiment.

Then try tying a 5kg weight at 2/3 and try again throwing the shackle, you are superman if it makes a mark on your pride and joy!

That should get some arguments going

Cheers Andrew

[AJ120 Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close AJ120]

Problem is that would count people out like me as I only have the ARB loops on the front. I agree you need to set standards but to say I can't come on a trip because I don't have the correct recovery points on the front is a little silly. I'd prefer to winch out anyway...

Read the requirements we set for last years GTG, you would be fine.

Cheers Andrew

[D4D Addicted PP Member Find all posts View Profile Close D4D]

Read the requirements we set for last years GTG, you would be fine.

So what's the point of this thread then???