Would you pull me out?

[Trekrider Banned Find all posts View Profile Close Trekrider]

I agree, I would be extremely surprised if someone would just drive off and leave you stranded - I certainly wouldn't.

In any recovery situation you have to judge the specific recovery on its own merits and find the safest solution that has a risk that is as low as reasonably practicable (ALARP). Even if you are concerned about the 'Recovery' points that are to be used on the stranded vehicle the correct use of recovery dampers should minimise the risk to yourself and your vehicle should the recovery points (or any other component) not be up to the task.

[Peterpilot Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close Peterpilot]

Just to throw the cat amongst the pigeons as it were. Where does this leave people like AJ120 who has home fabricated (non rated) recovery points? Andrew is one of the ones who says he won't recover using the factory loops but will with rated aftermarket points. Andrew isn't alone in being in this position - several people have modified the ARB Bullbar brackets to either beef them up (I was one of these but I did get mine done by a professional welder) or to be able to bolt rated hooks to them (like Andrew). The fact the hooks are rated in this case is obviously irrelevant as they are bolted to a home fabricated plate that isn't. I'm not picking on you here Andrew as you aren't the only one in this position - I personally consider that the 'modified' ARB plate to be the strongest solution we have (provided it has been welded properly) but it's still not rated. With my new bar, I have rated recovery hooks fitted to the points provided for doing so by the manufacturer of the bar - would people be willing to recover from these?

Trekkie, I would be more than happy to snatch recover your vehicle using your strengthened bullbar mounts with incorporated recovery points: http://www.pradopoint.com/showthread...l=1#post402966

I posted this just over 12months ago on this very topic: http://www.pradopoint.com/showthread...l=1#post355271

Been covered extensively before, it seems that the OE 150 series tie down points are very similar to the last of the OE 120 series tie down points. In other words, they look strong enough, but essentially they are not recovery points. At the end of the day, it matters not whether you think your tie down point is adequate for a recovery. It will be up to the person that recovers you because if it fails, that chunk of metal will be sailing towards the back of the recovery vehicle at a great rate of knots. I can assure you that I won't be recovering anyone without them having a recovery point fitted, but you go ahead and try to convince someone else that recovering your vehicle is more important than their safety.

I also posted this: http://www.pradopoint.com/showthread...l=1#post355327
and this: http://www.pradopoint.com/showthread...l=1#post367710

The topic has been covered here: http://www.pradopoint.com/showthread...ecovery-Points
here: http://www.pradopoint.com/showthread...ecovery-points
here: http://www.pradopoint.com/showthread...for-150-Series
and here: http://www.pradopoint.com/showthread...ery-Points-150

It's not personal and I'm sure anybody here would do anything they could to help someone stuck but at the end of the day I would only do what I considered was safe.

[Trekrider Banned Find all posts View Profile Close Trekrider]

Trekkie, I would be more than happy to snatch recover your vehicle using your strengthened bullbar mounts with incorporated recovery points: http://www.pradopoint.com/showthread...l=1#post402966

Nice to know Peter, but I don't have those any more - I would have liked to keep them when I sold my ARB bar but I don't think the guy who bought it would have been to happy. I was asking if anyone would use the rated hooks bolted to the manufacturer provided points on my new bar?

Specifically these:

[mackayvx Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close mackayvx]

Or a Toyota winch cradle, as I have. In case anyone missed it. I cannot fit the dodgy recovery points to my vehicle lol............

Anyway there's no absolute conclusion.

Good talk.

Ive got a winch cradle & the 'dodgey' recovery points...

Am I missing something here???

[mjrandom Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close mjrandom]

Or a Toyota winch cradle, as I have. In case anyone missed it. I cannot fit the dodgy recovery points to my vehicle lol............

Anyway there's no absolute conclusion.

Good talk.

Nor concluded absolution.

[macaroon1 Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close macaroon1]

Or a Toyota winch cradle, as I have. In case anyone missed it. I cannot fit the dodgy recovery points to my vehicle lol............

Anyway there's no absolute conclusion.

Good talk.

Ive got a winch cradle & the 'dodgey' recovery points...

Am I missing something here???

x2 . I've the outback ideas recovery points on the same set up. I'd gladly recover someone with those, just not sure about the OEM tie down hooks unless equalizer straps were involved!

[mackayvx Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close mackayvx]

So thats 2 of us that have Outback Points and a winch cradle fitted...

Does anyone else have the same set up?

[AJ120 Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close AJ120]

Andrew, I am all eye's to read what is the correct method of dampening a snatch strap.

It has always been my belief (rightly or wrongly) that using the 2 dampeners at the 1/3rd points provides far better protection from a flying snatch strap if it breaks.

In my quest for knowledge as I am never too old to learn i would be very happy to learn what the correct procedure is. Thus ensuring i can in all good faith say i have done all i can to make a snatch recovery as safe as humanly possible.

Just to add my own personal feelings on snatching...I think it has to be one of the most dangerous practices done, because of the lack of education in 4wd recovery to the general man/woman in the street who decides to buy a 4wd and head off into the bush.

Misinformation is the problem here.

Many say they try everything and use the winch as a last resort..me i try everything and use a snatch as a last resort.

I know we all have our own views and ideas of what is safe..but please put it out there Andrew.. What is the safest way to snatch and the use of dampeners.

Cheers
Steve

Gee hasn't a lot happened in this thread while I am out in the desert without Internet! Got some now so will work my way through it.

I agree Steve that snatching is a last resort and often dangerous

I will tell you how to set up a snatch damper correctly Steve, just keen to see if anyone else who is sharing there wisdom on this topic actually knows how to correctly do a snatch recovery before I spill the beans

Cheers Andrew

[AJ120 Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close AJ120]

The point is there is very opposite opinions on this.
That's all it is, opinions.
Its Because none of the points have been tested as they are mounted on a vehicle.
Until they are all tested to their limit, mounted as described, we won't know.
So we have to use our our brain to work out what is safe.
.

Yes I agree it's all opinion, it's what those opinions are based on that really matters.

In my case, I have extensive welding experience despite my lack of formal qualification.
Only recently I had testing done on some of my welding for rating purposes and they passed easily.
I have worked in a car factory, as a welder, as a welding trainer, and also on prototype design construction and destructive testing.
I have been trained in correct recovery procedure in lauding snatching and requirements for recovery points. I have been trained to be a trainer and have trained others in to correctly do snatch recoveries.
I also have extensive experience in vehicle recovery that started as a child when my father ran amongst other things a vehicle recovery service for bogged vehicles, and has continued to the present day being involved in many safe recoveries.

Having said all that #### I am not sure what experience you have to say that welded tow loops are good for recoveries? Do you even know how to weld? Do you know how to tell a good weld from a bad weld by visual check? Do you understand that not all welds are equal?

Maybe if you did your opinion might be a bit different!

I'll keep working my way through this thread and add more thoughts as I go

Cheers Andrew

[AJ120 Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close AJ120]

Also did your stamped plates come with a bolt tension specification and were they installed using a a tension wrench, otherwise they aren't rated.

People need to forget about the woes rated, it doesn't apply to this conversation, there are no rated recovery points to fit a 120 Prado. People get obsessed with it being rated, but rated to what, the word rated means nothing without a number after it anyway, a 1 tonne rated shackle is rated, but still no good for a recovery.

This topic is about what is the best most consistent way that you can attach a recovery strap to a Prado that has the least chance of failure, whatever you have is not rated so forget the term.

Cheers Andrew

[A10 Member Find all posts View Profile Close A10]

Regarding the tow points provided by Toyota, advice from Toyota in June 2010 was as follows:

"Please be advised that the 3 towing points (2 at the front and 1 at the rear) as referred to on page 513 of the owners manual, are for the purpose of "flat strap" towing ONLY, and are NOT recommended for the purpose of "snatch strap" towing.

When using a "snatch strap", the load that is transferred onto the towing point multiplies excessively and in turn can cause serious damage to your vehicle if used. It is this reason why Toyota does NOT recommend the use of "snatch straps"."

and

"Toyota does not recommend the use of 'snatch straps', we understand that in some situations tools do need to be used, however if they are used, it is at the owners own risk.

Please refer to page 10 of your Off-Road Manual, and page 20 of your Owners Manual.

Unfortunately there is no exact specs on how much load the "tow points" on your vehicle can take, however on page 511 of your Owners Manual it outlines very clearly that the "tow points" are only designed for towing in an emergency on hard surfaced roads for short distances at low speeds."


So Toyota does not condone their use for snatching even though Page 80 of the off road driving owners manual shows tools for recovering bogged vehicles which includes elastic towing rope (commonly called a snatch strap) which would be attached to the towing points using U-shaped shackles. Toyota were also not able to provide any advice on what force the tow points could take.

Nevertheless, I doubt most people would just leave you stranded and would try to help in what they consider a safe way.

[AJ120 Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close AJ120]

[QUOTE=adrian5800;416410
If any of you were to cut the box section of the chassis and see how thin the material is that the chassis is constructed of you'd would seriously reconsider your eagerness to go gung ho snatching anything and everything out of a bog. Check out this video of a 120..

[/QUOTE]

An interesting point, but I wonder what people on the rear for a recovery point? Most people (not me) use the tow hitch, have you looked at the thickness of the material that is bolted too? It's not very thick.

I know #### wouldn't use his towbar, after all that is bolted on with only six crappy 8.8 bolts, that's 2 less than front recovery points using a bridle

Oh and your towbar is actually rated, but only to 2.5 tonne, so all those people wanting to use correctly rated points would never consider using the towbar would they?

Cheers Andrew

[Trekrider Banned Find all posts View Profile Close Trekrider]

Oh and your towbar is actually rated, but only to 2.5 tonne, so all those people wanting to use correctly rated points would never consider using the towbar would they?

Cheers Andrew

An interesting point there Andrew. Back to ratings again - the whole towing system (including the tow ball) is rated for 2.5 tonne. We all know that you should never use a tow ball to attach a snatch strap as there is a huge difference between towing and snatching but people are happy to use the tow bar to snatch claiming it's rated (not you and me as we both have rear recovery points fitted) when it's actually only rated the same as the tow ball.

[AJ120 Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close AJ120]

Nice read, yes I would pull you out and snatch you of those tow points. If they are welded anything like mine are then you would need a lot of force to break them and I couldn't see why you would put that much force in a recovery, use common sense. As for factory welds they have QA in place for monitoring welding and the machines will have set operating guild lines to operate in. I'm a boilermaker / welder by trade and have my QA/QC welding inspectors cert, I will trust a weld over a bolt. I have made my own recovery point as some of you might have seen in my build thread, those were made and fitted as I know some clubs and people wouldn't pull me out off the tow points. My 2 cents worth cheers Brett

Having worked in a car factory as a welder I wouldn't be so sure about your assumptions on the QA. I also wouldn't assume that the welders are set to a pre determined setting, they certainly weren't when I was welding car chassis and suspension components in.

The fact is that none of the welders were qualified, some of them didn't even know what a welder was when they started to learn by welding someone's brand new car together! I would like to think that Toyota has higher standards than Mitsubishi had but I would bet my or anyone's life on it.

Would you snatch of those points if some guy that didn't know what a welder was welded them with his first weld ever?

I wouldn't.

Cheers Andrew

[AJ120 Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close AJ120]

Hi Peter,

At the GTG we will be able to discuss the difference in the 2 (earlier & later) and why the later ones are "much stronger"
.

It's because of the way they are welded, as I said before not all welds are equal, that includes the type of joint before its welded. Thats one of the problems with the argument about still relying on chassis welds with the bolt on recovery points. They are different types of welds, welding similar thickness steels instead of welding thick to thin. A far superior joint much more likely to have a good weld and requiring far less skill to produce a good result.

Welding 14mm round to 2mm flat and having to weld into the deep V like on the early 120's isn't an ideal joint, it would be really easy to have a god looking weld with no strength in this situation.

Cheers Andrew