How things can quickly go wrong............

[glen_ep Addicted PP Member Find all posts View Profile Close glen_ep]

I don't think there's any point arguing about emergency driving techniques online as it's unlikely that theory could be used in a real emergency situation. There's no replacement for practice, practice, practice on a private property (or similar) with a cheap car - and a little driver training to boot.

Also, don't forget the vehicle - don't overload, quality suspension & tyres, maintenance and keep the sway bars connected!

[Beach Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close Beach]

Sorry, beach, bundyk and ####, I am in total disagreement with you, last time I will say this, if the back steps out like in the video which is oversteer, adding any more power will make the situation worse, absolutely 100% guaranteed that it makes it worse, forget about skill or practice or anything else, more power = more oversteer end of discussion.


Cheers Andrew

Where did anyone say that adding power in an oversteer situation is a good idea?

[kav Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close kav]

Just for the record adding power in an oversteer situation can and will help , but not in any conditions that will be legally encountered in general driving conditions on a publicly opened road , unless you are driving a front wheel drive in snow or icy conditions with chains on and even then your probably doing something you shouldn't be doing

[VKPrado Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close VKPrado]

Rear whell drive oversteer- Back off
Front wheel drive oversteer- Power on
All wheel drive oversteer- ???????

Just my two cents worth. Just remember to drive to the conditions and plan to arrive safely. A couple of minutes late is better tan dead on arrival.

[bundyk Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close bundyk]

Sorry, beach, bundyk and ####, I am in total disagreement with you, last time I will say this, if the back steps out like in the video which is oversteer, adding any more power will make the situation worse, absolutely 100% guaranteed that it makes it worse, forget about skill or practice or anything else, more power = more oversteer end of discussion.


Cheers Andrew

Sorry mate, you are more than entitled to disagree, but here it is. Adding EXCESSIVE power at the very beginning of a slide can and probably will end in tears in turning the vehicle right around, but lifting off the throttle in a slide can also have an undesired effect - the tank slapper, caused by the vehicles outside wheels finding grip all of a sudden, resulting in the back end of the car taking a sudden change in direction. Made even worse in a FWD vehicle. AWD actually seen to fair ok though. However, some throttle IS required to keep the wheels turning enough to overcome traction and maintain control. Yes, adding too much can cause issues, but its not guaranteed.

Still need proof? Have a look at any motorsport where sliding is a part of it. They are all on the throttle, or "powering out" of the slide. Yes, the amount of throttle used increases through the corner as, like i said before, too much at the start will probably turn the car around. This is most obvious in drift, speedway and rally. The throttle is not closed at any part of the turn. Throttle is reduced a little at the very beginning to set the car up for the turn, but is reapplied in the turn and is increased and the slide continues.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CK94zCXsKI

The video is an exaggeration of what normally happens due to the modified steering geometry of a drift car and the fact the driver is aiming for maximum angle, but you can see he goes from the handbrake to wide open throttle and drives straight out. Had the driver hesitated in getting on the loud pedal, the car would have snapped back the other way, inducing a tank slapper or turning right around in the other direction and smacking the wall. Other great examples are Ken Block videos. I know that rally/drift/speedway cars are designed to be driven sideways, but if you look at, say, the touring cars, if one of them gets loose in the back they are on the throttle, not off it (unless it all goes pear shaped, in which case they are on the picks).

I have watched the video a couple of times now, and the driver has entered the corner with too much speed, which I am sure we all agree on. Lifting off at the beginning of the slide most likely would not have stopped the slide as momentum would have taken over by the time the driver reacted, and the roll over may still have happened. The vehicle needed some throttle to be applied and a little more opposite lock to be dialed in and it would have driven out. Having said this, this is not something that comes easily or naturally and takes practice to get right, so the average motorist would not have the skill set to get out of that situation. They might get lucky, but nothings guaranteed.

Dont get me wrong Andrew, I'm not trying to have a go at you or start an argument.. I have read many of your posts and you have a great knowledge base and a willingness to help others out, and for that you have my respect. I just feel your info here isnt 100% correct and I am merely trying to clear it up. I'm not a professional driver or the guru when it comes to drifting, but I do have racing experience on both dirt and tar, and this is where my input has come from.

[krypto Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close krypto]

In a 4WD the tricky part becomes how much power is transferred proportionally to the front/back and this varies between vehicles. So neither the front wheel drive or rear wheel drive theory holds entrirely, however once the vehicle starts spinning backing off completely will result in the momentum taking over. With the latest vehicles with ESC and ABS, which this is not, the brakes will be proportionally activated to try and prevent the vehicle spinning out. I still find this counter intuitive after learning to drive in the paddock using old style rear wheel drive vehicles with no ESC, ABS etc.

Ultimately as someone said above, if you are going to drive fast on dirt there is no substitute for regular practice. I'd love to have the use of a 150 series to thrash around on some dirt tracks to find out how it behaves in different situations, but that's not going to happen. This video has made me realise that I need to get some practice driving a 150 on the limit, or slow down, I'll be slowing down. Thanks for sharing.

[AJ120 Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close AJ120]

There is a big difference between powering through a corner and powering out of a slide.

Anyway, people will disagree and those unsure who to listen too should maybe consider professional independant advice.

If I were I rich man I'd hire a skid pan and fly in anyone who thinks they can power out of any slide, it would be a great days entertainment watching people go round and round in circles

Cheers Andrew

[gumboot Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close gumboot]

There is more to it than just the technique to control the slide, including the environment and especially the vehicles. We seem to be mixing racing car techniques with Landcrusiers . And my diesel Landcruse aint no racingcar....( I had to check I was still on pradopoint and not "fulky sik fast and furious racing .com")

I have had a fair amount of time on the skid pan and track in the past. BundyK is spot on.
On a race track / rally etc you can and do control slides with controlled throttle and steering. Powering off mid slide at speed will almost guarantee you the equavalent of a tank slapper/ reverse oversteer at the very least or most likely a pure spin.
Just go on a wet skid pan on any advanced driving course and you will see.
BUT a 2wd race car driven on the throttle with good feedback is very different from the doughy landcruiser in 4wd with delayed power dleivery and secondly as pointed out people skills vary widely and most are not used to this.

Anyway I agree with Hazza, all he needed to do it slow down a little in the first place and get there in one piece, especially with his precious cargo in the rear seat but hindsight is a wonderful thing.
I hope they are all ok.

Cheers
Robert

[ntp Addicted PP Member Find all posts View Profile Close ntp]

Funny how threads can turn.

From my perspective, the lessons in this video are pretty simple and should be a timely reminder for all at this time of year:

* drive to road conditions - especially on unsealed/unfamiliar roads
* always wear a seatbelt
* make sure items in a cabin are restrained (cargo barrier, tie downs)
* always be alert when driving - you never know what might happen next
* kiss your loved ones every day - it could be your last!

This could have been a much worse outcome. I'm thankful no-one was seriously hurt. It would have been a hell of a thing to have had the death of a child on the driver's conscious for the rest of his life.

[Bailey84 Member Find all posts View Profile Close Bailey84]

* make sure items in a cabin are restrained (cargo barrier, tie downs)

That was the big one for me.

[krypto Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close krypto]

Funny how threads can turn.

From my perspective, the lessons in this video are pretty simple and should be a timely reminder for all at this time of year:

* drive to road conditions - especially on unsealed/unfamiliar roads
* always wear a seatbelt
* make sure items in a cabin are restrained (cargo barrier, tie downs)
* always be alert when driving - you never know what might happen next
* kiss your loved ones every day - it could be your last!

This could have been a much worse outcome. I'm thankful no-one was seriously hurt. It would have been a hell of a thing to have had the death of a child on the driver's conscious for the rest of his life.

Well said

[Anth120playdo Banned Find all posts View Profile Close Anth120playdo]

Remembering there's a big difference in POWERING OUT and lightly accelerating.
I'm not talking drifting here, just enough to keep it str8.
As I said, decel is almost like light braking, it doesn't help, but many ppl won't understand it. This type of driving is a skill.
I'd be happy to demonstrate
Everyone relax, we allowed to have different opinions, some can think they are right, but............ Only 1 person was driving.
Agree to disagree.

[Steve M Addicted PP Member Find all posts View Profile Close Steve M]

The main thing is no body was hurt except for a cut elbow. Certainly needed a barrier. I'm sure I saw a ream of reflex copier paper flying around also. I think in any situation people panic when the situation wasn't planned. I look at the likes of Brocky who was one of the best there was and even all his driving skills in the world which I'm pretty certain would be more then any one on PP and it didn't save him unfortunately. I think the main thing as mentioned above is take it easy and drive to the conditions. I'm not criticizing the driver as I have no professional driving background.........Cheers Steve

[Bushbasher Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close Bushbasher]

Brocky was going over 100mph on a tight bend on a wet road in a Cobra Daytona - notorious for getting the back end out when you apply the throttle in the wet. I reckon he saw that tree coming.

[SmellySoggyBox Lurker Find all posts View Profile Close SmellySoggyBox]

Some have nailed it and some hasn't. And, this is my opinion...

I wouldn't even call that a corner, he started losing grip on a breakaway. I could be wrong but the speed that he was doing anywhere from 70-85 km's, he lost traction because of the loose gravel and it is a pretty bulky vehicle. Have a look at his sudden arm movement, it seems like he felt a sudden changed to his steering and his reaction was to correct it but he corrected too much and went the wrong way (right). Situations like this you can easily fix and it does not matter on what type of vehicle you are driving, what I normally do is steer where the body of mass (car) is trying to take me (left) and slow down at the same time without using too much brake. Call me reckless but if I was driving my car (STI type R) around that bend I would be slowing down before the corner (probably about 90-110 km's because it is an easy corner), from the moment I see the exit I will dump it hard and steer towards the exit and come out of that doing 130-150 km's (probably even more I need to be there and feel the road and the corner). I am no Colin McRae or Mikkelsen Andreas (currently 1st on IRC) but I have always been a fan of fast rally cars but it is time to buy a family SUV (Prado).

He does not look like a person who would recklessly drive his vehicle with his grandson in the back, maybe I am wrong there are too many oxygen thief in the world now days. It is just a simple equation loose gravel + large 4x4 + lack of experience = loss of control.

Remember... if you feel that you are about to lose control slow right down and steer to the direction of the slide, stop re-think and slap yourself silly.