The 150 series Dual Battery Guide

[MelbournePark]

drivesafe, if I had said liquid, instead of acid, would you be happy? Most people refer to the contents of a flooded lead acid battery, as having lead and acid. You know ... copper and zinc in a lemon ... have a few in series, and you can light an LED. A typical battery is lead and acid man ... don't you get it?

So, I said acid ... And IMO, if a manufacturer put in more acid (liquid then) into a battery, it would work. It might give a reserve, to extend the battery life. That's what they claimed. The maker made the claim, not me. I am not an expert, and neither are you. Perhaps its the marketing blurb. And I never said that the ratios were fixed in a flooded battery. You said that, not me, and IMO you said it because you mis-understand what I was saying.

And get real ... its not a big deal. Maybe I'll look up the quotation, and you can ring the manufacturer and check up the validity of their claims? Good luck on doing that though ...

[drivesafe]

Hi again MP, and in your first statement, you implied that battery manufacturers deliberately increase the acid rations in their batteries.

I have noted too that with "wet" open deep cycle batteries, makers will put in more acid than is necessary, so that the battery lasts longer.

This is not so, but then, when it was pointed out to you that manufacturers do not increase acid levels, you replied with this.

You've also said the ratio is constant - obviously in a flooded, its never constant. The evaporate in various conditions, and also give off various other gases as well ... would you like a list?

You say the ratio is constant - its not.

Maintaining the electrolyte level by topping up the battery cells with WATER, is the battery OWNERS responsibility and has absolutely nothing to do with allegations that manufacturers tamper with the acid levels.

I,m not wasting my time and everybody else’s time by going round and round in circles with you.

Like everybody else, you can find the correct info on battery manufacturer’s web sites.

Have a nice day MP

[MelbournePark]

And I have made mistake when comparing manufacturer stats too.

My saying that the Marine Pro 730 battery weight was wrong - at 24kg for its 100 AH dual marine maintenance free battery, that it should weigh around 31 kg - is wrong.

I did some more research, and found there are several other similar type batteries that are around 23-24 kg and have 95-100 AH (amp hr). It is likely that the weight of the Marine Pro 620 ( smaller but similar technology battery to the 730 model) is published at 24.1kg, and that is where the weight error would lie. The Marine Pro 620 would likely weigh around 18 to 19kg. I think the 730 model does weigh 24.1 kg after all. Apologies to those with Marine Pro 730s in the front of their Prados ...

I better alter my table as it would put the Marine Pro 730 very high up the AH v kg list.

As far as going to a manufacturer's - its not easy to get answers. Their data is be-fuddled quite often and there are errors. Like the weight of the Marine Pro 620 battery.

For instance, I contacted Exide over their ED2S battery.

It's a flooded battery (top up), but is described as rugged.

Its dimensions are 304 long, 173 wide, 233 high.

Its weight is 23kg. Its a cycle battery with heavy plates. A flooded one (that you top up).

Its claimed to have a reserve BCI level of 294. Many people use the reserve BCI as a good indicator of real battery capacity. That level is really high. For instance, the Marine Pro's BCI rating is very high, but it's 180. A lot less. And the AH rating is 150 AH. Which is also very high. So I rang Exide, several times, and only the girl reading the computer could simply read that same stats that are published. I said are you sure its 12 volts? They say yes, it is ... so I rang for a price, and the area manager said to my person - "you won't get 150 AH out of that battery. Its best to use a different one."

I still think the stats for that produce are wrong. 150 AH deep cycles normally weigh a lot more, and that sounds like a 6V to me ... maybe the weight stats are wrong though? http://www.exidebatteries.com.au/bat...l-cycling/ED2S

[MelbournePark]

Drivesafe - IMO my post was so damn long, you misread it. My fault for making a too long post.

I should have cut it into three parts ...

You thought I said top up with acid! That a manufacturer is describing that they put in reserves of acid to provide longer life in a particular deep cycle battery - to call that an error, means you must be an expert? I just quoted the manufacturer's claims!!

[drivesafe]

I don’t pretend to be an expert.

When I want “EXPERT” advice, I go to the experts and in this case, that is the battery manufacturers themselves.

Still not sure where you get your “EXPERT” advice from?

[MelbournePark]

Mate, you are doing nothing more than playing with words.

If a battery has 2% less “FLUID” it means it has 2% less H2O and 2% less Sulphuric Acid. The battery still has the same ratio.

Well ... I don't think you are an expert. The manufacturer said that it put in reserves in that range of their batteries. You may call them bulldust, but not me. I said what the manufacturer claimed, and now, you are blaming me!!!

You've also said the ratio is constant - obviously in a flooded, its never constant. The evaporate in various conditions, and also give off various other gases as well ... would you like a list?

You say the ratio is constant - its not. So too the different alloys make a difference to the electrolyte side. All these effect different types of batteries differently. And in the same type of batteries, modern ones are a bit different. They haven't improved much when compared to Boyle's Law and the increase in processor chip power, but batteries of the same type have still got better if one is prepared to pay for a better battery.

[AJ120]

Yeah as Aussie Andy said it's a good way to keep spare batteries in stock, a crew I used to work for always had 2 Cat batteries and acid to go sitting spare as we were running around 10 units that used them. I gather they will last almost indefinitely until the acid is added.

Personally I cant recall the last time I bought a wet cell, other than in a new car. I have always found I got better life out of sealed batteries and that's all I would buy now. The Prado Crank battery I have in the camper is a bit of a pain, it spills acid on rough roads, I sort of wish it would die and I could replace it with an Optima!

Cheers Andrew

[drivesafe]

Hi AJ120, it’s been about 8 years since I last bought a standard wet cell and that was supplied dry with the electrolyte in a plastic bottle.

So they still supply batteries that way!

Hi AussieAndy and yep a great way to be able to keep batteries in a new state till you need them.

[AussieAndy]

You can still buy many batteries that way, a lot of trucking companies will often keep a set of spare batteries sitting waiting, these are empty with acid in bottles waiting to be added. This is a great way to store a spare battery.

[AJ120]

In the old days, the batteries were shipped dry and and the electrolyte came, pre mixed in plastic bottles.

.

Not just in the old days, caterpillar batteries still come that way.

I must say that I find it hard to understand how people make such a simple system like a dual battery set up seem so complicated.

I reckon a few people are over thinking things a bit. When I hook up my camper I actually have a triple battery system, all batteries are different, an optima blue top, a sealed AGM and the original crank battery in the camper. Add a redarc SBI12 and a booster diode and I've had no issues in 4 years, that's often running a fridge and a freezer plus lights and radios on our travels!

Cheers Andrew

[drivesafe]

Mate, you are doing nothing more than playing with words.

If a battery has 2% less “FLUID” it means it has 2% less H2O and 2% less Sulphuric Acid. The battery still has the same ratio.

I have noted too that with "wet" open deep cycle batteries, makers will put in more acid than is necessary, so that the battery lasts longer.

Again, the manufacturers do not use an electrolyte mix that has a high ratio of acid that is the standard ratio.

In the old days, the batteries were shipped dry and and the electrolyte came, pre mixed in plastic bottles.

The seller of the battery simply filled each battery to the designated marked level and that was it. They had no way of charging the ratio of H2O to Acid.

Today, with most batteries being of a sealed type, the ratio is the same and unchangeable.

[MelbournePark]

Mate, I’m not sure where you are sourcing your info from but the acid to water ratio in all automotive batteries is the same.

Furthermore, “putting more acid” in a battery SHORTENS it’s life not lengths it’s life.

I never said to add acid. I said water. A flooded battery often has significant changes in its water/acid ratio. Such as when we top them up. With water.

As far as the ratio goes, AGMs typically have less total fluid - 2% less than if they were a wet battery. Hence the starved term for them. I presume that AGM sensitivity to heat, is related to loosing fluid from the glass matt - they can do that.

I do find it strange that while AGMs are said to be heat sensitive, they are under the bonnet in lots of vehicles. Including two of mine that have Optimas in them.

As to why a flooded manufacturer claims reserve levels - I don't know, or how.

[drivesafe]

Mate, I’m not sure where you are sourcing your info from but the acid to water ratio in all automotive batteries is the same.

Furthermore, “putting more acid” in a battery SHORTENS it’s life not lengths it’s life.

For example, RAPS deep cycle batteries have a lower ratio of acid to water so they do get a longer life span. Many having a Warranted life span of up to 18 years.

There are no such warranties for automotive batteries.

whereas cold climate cranking batteries, ( not available in Australia ) have a higher ratio of acid to water, to stop them freezing in extreme cold regions, but they are a trade off because they have a much shorter life span.

Furthermore, there are two distinct types of AGM batteries.

Standby type, which are the most common and the cheaper, do not, as you posted, like engine bay heat.

The other type is the genuine Automotive type AGM, like optima and they are specifically designed to tolerate the same heat that a conventional cranking battery will tolerate and are designed as direct replacements for conventional cranking batteries.

[MelbournePark]

Melbourne park,

The switch as you call it will link both batteries within seconds of the engine starting,
once they isolator links the batteries, each battery will draw what it wants from the alternator. As long as the alternator has sufficient reserve capacity it doesn't matter which position the batteries are in neither will affect the others charging.

Cheers
Leigh

OK, I guess the batteries - despite being different uptake voltage preferences - will just stop taking power when they are charged. The "switch" will isolate the starter battery when being drained and its voltage drops to a predetermined point, in order to save it for starting. No issues then with running an AGM and a "semi wet" together, as long as the voltage is high enough for the AGM?

As far as your recommendation of the Marine Pro - a good value choice too - the 730 model is 100amps. There are three others. One being 75 amps (it weighs 24kg), and there is also a higher quality and heavier than 730 model, which is 110 AH.

As far as the best choice - for the wet type, the Marine Pro seems as good as any for a dual starting and cycle capable rugged affordable battery. Also made here!

IMO the best for a Prado though, is the Exide range. Sad they have shut down their Adelaide plant though, the bastards ...

Anyhow, as far as AGM goes, these looked the best to me, from a size v weight and performance perspective. I did a table, of AH/Kg. On a percentage basis, the Optimas were 40% less efficient. The top scores were the Exide cycle batteries.

As far as the Marine Pros go and your query about capacity, they sell several Marine Pro models, and three of them are made in Australia. Your 730 is but one model. What annoys me though, is their lack of specifications, and their errors in specification. In fact I think that the 730 statistics leaves them open to action by a Prado owner who has incurred damage to his wheel arch from a battery causing failure in the car.

Why? Because the Marine Pro 730 is claimed to weigh 24Kg. http://www.centurybatteries.com.au/r.../product/n70zm

It has 100 AH. The 620 version has 75AH, and it also weighs 24.1kg. http://www.centurybatteries.com.au/r.../product/ns70m

I think the 730 weighs close to 31kg, perhaps as light as 30kg, but maybe 32kg. Despite its publicized weight being 24kg. Its much the same technology as the 620, its difference is IMO more lead, more acid and volume. 100 AH / 75 AH = 1.33. 1.33 x 24 kg = 32kg.

The 580 version weighs 16.4kg, but its AH are not provided on its specification sheet, because its not intended for auxiliary work. However it has 65 AH (found on a table) but they are not really the same quality of Amps. http://www.centurybatteries.com.au/r.../product/d23rm

These Marine Pro batteries vary in their cycling ability, and some in the range are full deep cycle batteries. The table sort of lists them (a # refers to deep cycle). http://www.centurybatteries.com.au/c...rochure-a4.pdf

A problem with most of the pure cycling 12V batteries I looked at, is that they seemed too heavy for a Prado.

IMO its all mean't to confuse us! Note the Marine Pro HD battery, is 110 AH, but has less CCA starting power than your 730? That's because Marine Pro HD is orientated more for cycling. IMO that's a good thing when you already have a starting battery. Hence I think the 730 is great as a starting battery, but not so good as an auxiliary second battery.

Now - are there deep cycle batteries that suit the Prado? IMO ones that are duel - and can start the motor - do not cycle as well, hence they won't do as good a job. But are their ones that fit in the Prado, and are not too heavy?

The best I have found - presuming their statistics are correct - are some of the Exide batteries - the Leisure Cycle ones. Available also via Marshall.

They topped my AH/Kg table. In other words, the had more AH per Kg, and also, they are cycle batteries, and are also can take rough treatment.

Type Label Weight Length AH Brand Usage Effective AH AH / Kg
AGM LCG24-92 20.2 260 92 Exide 50% 46 2.28 0.0%
Calc LCS24-86 19 260 86 Exide 50% 43 2.26 -0.6%
AGM LCG27-110 25.1 304 110 Exide 50% 55 2.19 -3.8%
Calc LCS27-97 23 304 97 Exide 50% 48.5 2.11 -7.4%

sorry about the table not working.

But if you look at the LCG24 model, that is a 20.2 Kg AGM battery with 92 AH, that is only 260mm long. It should fit in the spare 150 battery slot, without touching the air con pipe (I do wonder though if its not worth getting an Air Con guy to simply have it moved professionally aside. Damn it Toyota - why didn't you do that?

The problem though with that battery, is that it is maybe $330 after a discount. But for a Prado, IMO its a much better bet than an Optima.

A cheaper choice is the LCS24-86 - which is not an AGM. It's still only 260mm long, and only 19Kg, and provides 86 AH, but only costs $200 RRP.

The LGS27-110 is 110 AH, 304mm long, and weighs 25.1 kg, and is AGM. Its likely $360 or so ... not sure. These batteries are all made in the USA. There are 330mm size ones too that go to 120 AH. Bet they are pricey.

IMO the Leisure Cycle Exide batteries seem the best for the Prado. If their stats and claims are for real!!!
http://www.exidebatteries.com.au/bat.../leisure-cycle

I am not an expert though and for a starter battery the Marine Pro is a great choice. I don't know if for most people spending an extra 75% to get AGM and quicker recharging and better shelf life worth the extra. Which is what yuo told me a month or so ago!!


Of all that I've looked at for a second Prado 150 battery, the Leisure cycle Exides - both AGM and wet - seemed the best range to me, because they are toughened, are intended for cycling not starting hence will last longer, and their AH per Kg values are high. http://www.exidebatteries.com.au/bat.../leisure-cycle

Please excuse the rambling post ...

and finally, if I keep my Prado for 10 years, then maybe an Lithium would be the best choice. I haven't worked that out yet ... but the problem is that if one fails 5 years from now, you've got no warranty, and they are expensive. They are a higher risk choice but perhaps the better for those that will keep their vehicle IMO.

Please don't forget friends that I am not a pro and am not in the battery business, or anything like that. I have no experience of the real world problems of any of the batteries I've check out.

One further comment about AGM batteries is that they "do not like heat". The engine bay is a hot place ... I presume the issue with heat, is that the fibreglass that absorbs the acid, is "starved" - ie does not have quite enough acid. Hence they appear to be dry on the inside. But if they have lots of heat, perhaps the acid is lost and then their power becomes diminished. In a "dry" AGM battery, there appears to be no reserve of acid ... otherwise one could not tip them over or call them "dry".

Also, high charge rates can increase battery temperatures ... in boats, they monitor battery temperatures during charging, to prevent damaging the battery

I have noted too that with "wet" open deep cycle batteries, makers will put in more acid than is necessary, so that the battery lasts longer. This also allows water top ups without diminishing the capacity of the battery. I presume that because "wet" batteries are not "starved", they therefor have more fluid, and perhaps that is why they are less sensitive to heat?

[Prone]

I have sidewinder tray. Goes in easily and no great modification to a/c piping.

I used 55Ah Optima as it fits well (and less weight than 100Ah, so may be better for guards?) capacity is lower than I would like but adequate most of the time.

Other reason for Optima was that it was sealed and not prone to venting electrolyte on rough roads. Last few wet lead acid batteries I had all managed to lose a small amount of electrolyte on rough roads. And some times the "trained" mechanics would overfill the cells when car was serviced despite requests to leave the batteries alone.

Cheers
Prone