The 150 series Dual Battery Guide

[drivesafe Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close drivesafe]

Hi Isiman, if you set the charger to WET and 13.5, you can safely charge and maintain both battery types at the same time.

[Isiman Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Isiman]

Excellent, thanks for the advice!

[MelbournePark Member Find all posts View Profile Close MelbournePark]

I already have a marine pro as well as the other n70 (which is unfortunately useless in the prado - not having enough space for 2x n70s) taken out of my Patrol before it left my hands - took all the good bits out before it 'went'. If I don't need to buy two new batteries then that is a good thing however when the Marine Pro does die, then I might consider getting a second yellow top.
I would be looking at using the yellow top as the starter and running accessories of the marine.
The marine pro is only about 4 months old.
I'll have a look at lunch time for the model of the charger.

Century AGM batteries are not warrantied in the engine bay. They claim something to do with their case!!! IMO there is the marketing department protecting their distribution of Optima batteries, which are also AGM batteries, but are warranted when used in the engine bay.

You have a Marine Pro and an Optima. Both have deep cycle capabilities. i am not sure which Optima you have, and which Marine Pro (there are several marine Pros). Curiously I recall the Marine Pro stats were incorrect with their weights, because two different versions had the same weight (I hate companies publishing incorrect data).

Anyhow, if you use the Optima as your auxiliary battery, the benefit in doing that, would be the Optima would re-charge a lot quicker than the Marine Pro can due to the Optima being AGM and also Optimas are know to re-charge quickly.

If you have a switch located for the batteries, then both batteries can provide auxiliarly power, but the switch will stop the starting battery from using too much of its capacity, which prevents a flattened start up battery. Such a device would also increases second battery life due to the second battery not being worked nearly as much.

If you have the Optima as the start battery and do not have its power connected for auxiliary service, you are IMO wasting the Optima's capabilities.

[Isiman Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Isiman]

At the moment all I have is the crappy original battery that was in the car, and no second tray. I also have a N70ZZL4WD and a marine pro 730 sitting on charge for when I get a tray. Obviously that combination won't work on a prado.
hence me thinking about getting something that will compliment what I already have.
Oh I also have all cabling and redarc sbi isolator to go in including a manual override switch (large, not in cab so that I can which through if needed). Cable is all 50mm welding cable with proper crimps.
Most of this has come out ofthe last car I owned, apart from the crap battery which came with the prado

[Isiman Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Isiman]

Maybe I'm over thinking it, I could just use the marine pro as the starter, and do asyou say with the optima as the secondary.
Cheers

[MelbournePark Member Find all posts View Profile Close MelbournePark]

I am not an expert, but have been reading up. So please correct my assumptions everybody. But be nice!!!

IMO the benefit of having the Optima as the starting battery, is that it has more CCA power, and also, it re-charges very quickly. So, if you are using both batteries for Auxiliary work, and the charge on the Optima drops to 50% of its amp hours, your device should ideally cut the power drain to the auxiliaries from the starting Optima battery. And then drain from the Marine Pro 730. When you start your motor, the starting battery should get the initial charge. Because the aGM Optima recharges very quickly, it won't take long for the switch to transfer the charge over to the secondary battery. And while that battery - the Marine Pro - takes long to charge, at least you have already charged the Optima. If it was the other way around, the Optima may never get its charge, because the Marine Pro takes longer to charge. Hence IMO Optima is best as the starting battery, if the electronics protect from starter depletion, and uses it for auxiliary power.

Incidentally, depending on your Optmax, the stats for two of the are:
24.1kg L309 W172 H219 140RC 66AH 830 D27F AGM Optima
19.5kg L254 W175 H198 120RC 55AH 750 D34 AGM Optima

So the Optima's don't have so much Amp Hours but lots of starting power. They also should tolerate many more re-charges than the Marine Pro, so that's another reason IMO to ensure they are used.

Strangely the web site for the Marine Pro lists the 730 weight as being the same as the smaller version. I therefore have increased its weight by my guesstimate, to 27kg:

27.0 kg L306 W171 H202 180 100AH 730 N70ZM WetM Century
24.1 kg L260 W171 H202 155 75AH 620 NS70M WetM Century

I guess the problem with the 730 Marine Pro is its weight and length, for in 150s you'd have to push the air con piping away from the battery. The issues of weight might be a concern to some 150 owners as well.

[Guest Close Guest]

My preferred choice for the aux battery would have been the one with the highest Ah.

[MelbournePark Member Find all posts View Profile Close MelbournePark]

My preferred choice for the aux battery would have been the one with the highest Ah.

Except that a starting battery you can only use 40% of its AH, a marine or hybrid/dual battery 60% of its AH, and a deep cycle 80%.

So if we look at the Marine Pro, with say 75AH, perhaps we will be able to access 45 AH. A similar 75AH deep cycle, then you'd plan on 60 AH, which is 33% more capacity than a marine or dual/hybrid's which has the same labelled Amp Hours.

If when working out your likely loads, everyone recommends being conservative, I think because if you push your batteries, they will not last nearly as long. Our problem with the Prado especially, is that we don't want to have too much weight up the front, yet it is weight that provides power in a lead acid box, so weight is good, but not for the Prado!

And there are different Prado users out there too - particularly I presume, those that have winches, compared to those that just are running I presume, lights and fridges. A winch requires lots of current, while lights and fridge usage is ideal for deep cycle batteries IMO.

For myself, there are some deep cycles around that can be put in a 4WD, and those are the ones that appeal to me. However, if one goes to a "cycling" AGM, the costs can be 75% more for the AGM. The benefits of AGM IMO seem only to be fast re-charging, presuming the deep cycle one is comparing it to is ruggedised (AGMs are inherently ruggedised). Curiously though, one distributor will not warrant its AGMs for under bonnet usage (in Australia that is). They say because of oil contamination!!

[LeighW Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close LeighW]

Melbourne park,

The switch as you call it will link both batteries within seconds of the engine starting,
once they isolator links the batteries, each battery will draw what it wants from the alternator. As long as the alternator has sufficient reserve capacity it doesn't matter which position the batteries are in neither will affect the others charging.

Unless they have changed the marine pros the were a 100Ah, I constantly discharge mine to around the 40% mark, when I checked it a couple of weeks age was around 60Ah not bad for a 7 year old battery.

Cheers
Leigh

[Isiman Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Isiman]

Wow, nothing like a bit of a debate :-)
I I think what I'll do is just get the sidewinder tray, which can't take a300mm battery, put a optima in it, and the 300mm M pro in the current starter battery position. I think that should keep me happy for a while.
The winch isn't in yet, not sure if I can convince the missus on putting it in, I'm kind banned from proper 4wding at the moment...
Thanks all for the input!

[Prone Member Find all posts View Profile Close Prone]

I have sidewinder tray. Goes in easily and no great modification to a/c piping.

I used 55Ah Optima as it fits well (and less weight than 100Ah, so may be better for guards?) capacity is lower than I would like but adequate most of the time.

Other reason for Optima was that it was sealed and not prone to venting electrolyte on rough roads. Last few wet lead acid batteries I had all managed to lose a small amount of electrolyte on rough roads. And some times the "trained" mechanics would overfill the cells when car was serviced despite requests to leave the batteries alone.

Cheers
Prone

[MelbournePark Member Find all posts View Profile Close MelbournePark]

Melbourne park,

The switch as you call it will link both batteries within seconds of the engine starting,
once they isolator links the batteries, each battery will draw what it wants from the alternator. As long as the alternator has sufficient reserve capacity it doesn't matter which position the batteries are in neither will affect the others charging.

Cheers
Leigh

OK, I guess the batteries - despite being different uptake voltage preferences - will just stop taking power when they are charged. The "switch" will isolate the starter battery when being drained and its voltage drops to a predetermined point, in order to save it for starting. No issues then with running an AGM and a "semi wet" together, as long as the voltage is high enough for the AGM?

As far as your recommendation of the Marine Pro - a good value choice too - the 730 model is 100amps. There are three others. One being 75 amps (it weighs 24kg), and there is also a higher quality and heavier than 730 model, which is 110 AH.

As far as the best choice - for the wet type, the Marine Pro seems as good as any for a dual starting and cycle capable rugged affordable battery. Also made here!

IMO the best for a Prado though, is the Exide range. Sad they have shut down their Adelaide plant though, the bastards ...

Anyhow, as far as AGM goes, these looked the best to me, from a size v weight and performance perspective. I did a table, of AH/Kg. On a percentage basis, the Optimas were 40% less efficient. The top scores were the Exide cycle batteries.

As far as the Marine Pros go and your query about capacity, they sell several Marine Pro models, and three of them are made in Australia. Your 730 is but one model. What annoys me though, is their lack of specifications, and their errors in specification. In fact I think that the 730 statistics leaves them open to action by a Prado owner who has incurred damage to his wheel arch from a battery causing failure in the car.

Why? Because the Marine Pro 730 is claimed to weigh 24Kg. http://www.centurybatteries.com.au/r.../product/n70zm

It has 100 AH. The 620 version has 75AH, and it also weighs 24.1kg. http://www.centurybatteries.com.au/r.../product/ns70m

I think the 730 weighs close to 31kg, perhaps as light as 30kg, but maybe 32kg. Despite its publicized weight being 24kg. Its much the same technology as the 620, its difference is IMO more lead, more acid and volume. 100 AH / 75 AH = 1.33. 1.33 x 24 kg = 32kg.

The 580 version weighs 16.4kg, but its AH are not provided on its specification sheet, because its not intended for auxiliary work. However it has 65 AH (found on a table) but they are not really the same quality of Amps. http://www.centurybatteries.com.au/r.../product/d23rm

These Marine Pro batteries vary in their cycling ability, and some in the range are full deep cycle batteries. The table sort of lists them (a # refers to deep cycle). http://www.centurybatteries.com.au/c...rochure-a4.pdf

A problem with most of the pure cycling 12V batteries I looked at, is that they seemed too heavy for a Prado.

IMO its all mean't to confuse us! Note the Marine Pro HD battery, is 110 AH, but has less CCA starting power than your 730? That's because Marine Pro HD is orientated more for cycling. IMO that's a good thing when you already have a starting battery. Hence I think the 730 is great as a starting battery, but not so good as an auxiliary second battery.

Now - are there deep cycle batteries that suit the Prado? IMO ones that are duel - and can start the motor - do not cycle as well, hence they won't do as good a job. But are their ones that fit in the Prado, and are not too heavy?

The best I have found - presuming their statistics are correct - are some of the Exide batteries - the Leisure Cycle ones. Available also via Marshall.

They topped my AH/Kg table. In other words, the had more AH per Kg, and also, they are cycle batteries, and are also can take rough treatment.

Type Label Weight Length AH Brand Usage Effective AH AH / Kg
AGM LCG24-92 20.2 260 92 Exide 50% 46 2.28 0.0%
Calc LCS24-86 19 260 86 Exide 50% 43 2.26 -0.6%
AGM LCG27-110 25.1 304 110 Exide 50% 55 2.19 -3.8%
Calc LCS27-97 23 304 97 Exide 50% 48.5 2.11 -7.4%

sorry about the table not working.

But if you look at the LCG24 model, that is a 20.2 Kg AGM battery with 92 AH, that is only 260mm long. It should fit in the spare 150 battery slot, without touching the air con pipe (I do wonder though if its not worth getting an Air Con guy to simply have it moved professionally aside. Damn it Toyota - why didn't you do that?

The problem though with that battery, is that it is maybe $330 after a discount. But for a Prado, IMO its a much better bet than an Optima.

A cheaper choice is the LCS24-86 - which is not an AGM. It's still only 260mm long, and only 19Kg, and provides 86 AH, but only costs $200 RRP.

The LGS27-110 is 110 AH, 304mm long, and weighs 25.1 kg, and is AGM. Its likely $360 or so ... not sure. These batteries are all made in the USA. There are 330mm size ones too that go to 120 AH. Bet they are pricey.

IMO the Leisure Cycle Exide batteries seem the best for the Prado. If their stats and claims are for real!!!
http://www.exidebatteries.com.au/bat.../leisure-cycle

I am not an expert though and for a starter battery the Marine Pro is a great choice. I don't know if for most people spending an extra 75% to get AGM and quicker recharging and better shelf life worth the extra. Which is what yuo told me a month or so ago!!


Of all that I've looked at for a second Prado 150 battery, the Leisure cycle Exides - both AGM and wet - seemed the best range to me, because they are toughened, are intended for cycling not starting hence will last longer, and their AH per Kg values are high. http://www.exidebatteries.com.au/bat.../leisure-cycle

Please excuse the rambling post ...

and finally, if I keep my Prado for 10 years, then maybe an Lithium would be the best choice. I haven't worked that out yet ... but the problem is that if one fails 5 years from now, you've got no warranty, and they are expensive. They are a higher risk choice but perhaps the better for those that will keep their vehicle IMO.

Please don't forget friends that I am not a pro and am not in the battery business, or anything like that. I have no experience of the real world problems of any of the batteries I've check out.

One further comment about AGM batteries is that they "do not like heat". The engine bay is a hot place ... I presume the issue with heat, is that the fibreglass that absorbs the acid, is "starved" - ie does not have quite enough acid. Hence they appear to be dry on the inside. But if they have lots of heat, perhaps the acid is lost and then their power becomes diminished. In a "dry" AGM battery, there appears to be no reserve of acid ... otherwise one could not tip them over or call them "dry".

Also, high charge rates can increase battery temperatures ... in boats, they monitor battery temperatures during charging, to prevent damaging the battery

I have noted too that with "wet" open deep cycle batteries, makers will put in more acid than is necessary, so that the battery lasts longer. This also allows water top ups without diminishing the capacity of the battery. I presume that because "wet" batteries are not "starved", they therefor have more fluid, and perhaps that is why they are less sensitive to heat?

[drivesafe Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close drivesafe]

Mate, I’m not sure where you are sourcing your info from but the acid to water ratio in all automotive batteries is the same.

Furthermore, “putting more acid” in a battery SHORTENS it’s life not lengths it’s life.

For example, RAPS deep cycle batteries have a lower ratio of acid to water so they do get a longer life span. Many having a Warranted life span of up to 18 years.

There are no such warranties for automotive batteries.

whereas cold climate cranking batteries, ( not available in Australia ) have a higher ratio of acid to water, to stop them freezing in extreme cold regions, but they are a trade off because they have a much shorter life span.

Furthermore, there are two distinct types of AGM batteries.

Standby type, which are the most common and the cheaper, do not, as you posted, like engine bay heat.

The other type is the genuine Automotive type AGM, like optima and they are specifically designed to tolerate the same heat that a conventional cranking battery will tolerate and are designed as direct replacements for conventional cranking batteries.

[MelbournePark Member Find all posts View Profile Close MelbournePark]

Mate, I’m not sure where you are sourcing your info from but the acid to water ratio in all automotive batteries is the same.

Furthermore, “putting more acid” in a battery SHORTENS it’s life not lengths it’s life.

I never said to add acid. I said water. A flooded battery often has significant changes in its water/acid ratio. Such as when we top them up. With water.

As far as the ratio goes, AGMs typically have less total fluid - 2% less than if they were a wet battery. Hence the starved term for them. I presume that AGM sensitivity to heat, is related to loosing fluid from the glass matt - they can do that.

I do find it strange that while AGMs are said to be heat sensitive, they are under the bonnet in lots of vehicles. Including two of mine that have Optimas in them.

As to why a flooded manufacturer claims reserve levels - I don't know, or how.

[drivesafe Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close drivesafe]

Mate, you are doing nothing more than playing with words.

If a battery has 2% less “FLUID” it means it has 2% less H2O and 2% less Sulphuric Acid. The battery still has the same ratio.

I have noted too that with "wet" open deep cycle batteries, makers will put in more acid than is necessary, so that the battery lasts longer.

Again, the manufacturers do not use an electrolyte mix that has a high ratio of acid that is the standard ratio.

In the old days, the batteries were shipped dry and and the electrolyte came, pre mixed in plastic bottles.

The seller of the battery simply filled each battery to the designated marked level and that was it. They had no way of charging the ratio of H2O to Acid.

Today, with most batteries being of a sealed type, the ratio is the same and unchangeable.