The 150 series Dual Battery Guide

[LeighW Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close LeighW]

It is quite common for D4D prado to charge at 13.8V at an ambient of 20C, they usually start off around 14.2V~14.4V and settle down to around 13.8V.

You also have a vested interest, as you wrote you don't sell normal isolators so one would therefore assume you only sell/install DCDC charger setups as it suits your business setup ie quick and convenient for you.

In the following scenario which is not uncommon ie three batteries tell me how a DCDC charger setup could be justified as economical?

I have decided I need a beer fridge Prado, so I’ll get a 120A aux and a 20A Ctek to charge it. Great now I have cold beer!

Hang on the wife now wants a freezer for the food, dam, looks like I need another 120A battery, but if I connect it to the one I’ve already got it going to take me around 7 hours driving to charge them from 50% SOC, got it, I’ll install another charger to charge it. All fixed!

Hang on again, I want to be able to free camp for a few days, hmm better install another 120A to give a bit of reserve, dam, no good having capacity if I can’t charge it, have to put another Ctek in to charge it.

Just read, shouldn’t connect the fridge to the battery while its being charged as it will upset the smart charger programming, ok I’ll install some sort of bypass system to bypass the charger when the alternators charging. Good now all done.

Forgot the winch, I’ll connect that to the cranking battery, but hang on the alternators only putting out around 13.8V, going to take the battery awhile to recover after winching, got it! I’ll install a booster diode, that’ll speed up recovery no end.

Come to think of it if I had of installed a normal isolator to start with and a booster diode I could have simply connected my second aux battery across the first aux and my third across second.

Hmm as the DCDC my chargers are only around 70% efficient that would have an left an extra 30A or so going into the batteries instead of going up as heat. The batteries would have charged faster and my winch problem would have been solved and I could have simply connected the fridge across the aux's too.

Dam why did I spend that $600 on those chargers for a system that’s less efficient and more complicated!!

Yes I could have started out with a lot bigger charger but then few would go down that path due to the cost.

As for being biased, there are plenty of members on this forum who have dealt with me and can confirm if I don't believe they require a booster diode or would be better off with a DCDC charger I will advise them so. What's the point in pushing a system that doesn't work on a forum like this, members will soon let others know if it doesn't perform as Chipit found out.

The big advantage for non vendors is you can come along and make statements such as you can only charge a battery to 70% off an alternator, can't charge an AGM with an alternator, takes longer to charge off an alternator etc and go on your way. This is blatantly untrue and can have seriously affect on a manufactures businesses. If you feel a particular setup is better, then fine raise the good points, but don't use other manufactures biased and blatantly untrue sales propaganda to bag other manufactures products or push a quick and neat solution for yourself.

Simple fact is there are a great many many more users out there using simply setups with very good results.

As has been written many times before there is no one stop solution for all, users need to:

* Look at their individual requirements.

* Make allowance for possible expansion of the system if required, ie how easy to expand, what will it cost etc?

* Do their own research and don't believe all the sales glossies, they are there to convince you to buy their product.

Hopefully then you will then find the solution that suits them best.

That's my last words on this subject, perhaps someone can post up a Lithuim version for members to also consider?

LeighW PS I love traction control too, though as with all technology could have been better thought out and not overheat if you actually use it etc.

[drivesafe Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close drivesafe]

Hi Leigh and forget it.

This guy will say anything he THINKS is what happens when it doesn’t.

A perfect example is his claim that the Ctek dc/dc units charge the cranking battery.

Not only is this the first time I have ever heard his “claim” ( read BS ) but nowhere in any of Cteks literature do they make any such statement, nor do they imply such a thing happens, this is just one of the many things ########## has made up.

There is only one DC/DC range on the market that will first charge and then maintain the cranking battery while it then charges the auxiliary/house batteries.

These are the AB units produced by Sterling and they are not piddling little 20 amp toys, their smallest unit is 80 amps and they go up to 400 amps.

[LeighW Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close LeighW]

Hi Tim,

I think what ########## is referring to when he wrote the Ctek first charges the cranking battery to
13.8V is the popular misconception that the charger/isolator waits for the cranking battery to be
charged before starting to charge the aux, instead of its actually purpose to isolate the cranking
battery from the aux when the alternator stops charging or in the case of your isolators when the
the cranking battery terminals hit a predefined voltage allow part of the cranking battery reserve to be used..

From memory I believe the Rotronics units actually has a timing circuit, it waits for a preset time
after charging starts before switching over to the aux to allow some exclusive charge to go
to the cranking battery. So I suppose you could say it also waits for the cranking battery to
"charge". Possibly the Ctek is similar but I don't recall reading it anywhere?

Is a pity the ACMA doesn't take an interest in the blatant miss information
being spread by various companies to push their products.

Cheers
Leigh

[drivesafe Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close drivesafe]

Is a pity the ACMA doesn't take an interest in the blatant miss information
being spread by various companies to push their products.

Leigh, that is the real problem and not what ########## has posted.

It is so disgusting that a modern country like this has such pathetic consumer protection laws.

[LeighW Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close LeighW]

Yes,

My apologies to the Roo, I was referring to the sales glossies dis-information and other content that resides on some manufactures websites. When I have pointed out that statements made during some videos are totally incorrect and misleading they reply with "that is the presenters opinion" and not necessarily the opinion of this company, if that's the case why not delete it?

Anyway we all agree to disagree it seems back to the Topic, again I would be interested
to see what a Lithium setup could be done in say 200AH capacity if anyone has knowlegde
of the costs involved.

As far as I'm aware lead acid still gives the best bang for buck in small installations?

Cheers
Leigh

[Alpinebully Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Alpinebully]

##########,

Honestly im not sold on the DC-DC charger just yet for a simple dual battery system, in your camper trailer or caravan sure but just to charge an aux battery in your car forget it.

Your right, most new vehicles with 'smart' alternators are a pain in the butt, but the voltages you mention do not match up with my own experiences with my wifes 2012 Prado 150. Her alternator would begin outputting 14.1-14.2V upon starting the vehicle.

But being a 'smart' alternator this voltage would drop down into the mid to high 13's after a while with the engine running.

This is where LeighW's voltage booster fuse comes into play and it works perfectly as advertised. My wifes Prado now puts out 14.4-14.5V constantly.

Bottom line Roo, you must understand that to properly maintain and charge a 12V vehicle battery you need 14.4-14.5volts. Yes, giving your batteries some loving with an AC charger every now and again is a great idea but generally speaking with 14.4-14.5volts IMO you will likely get the most longevity out of your batteries given they are likely to die because of the harsh operating conditions in the end anyways.

So in the case of modern smart alternators Leigh's product solves this problem, WHEREAS your DC-DC charger does NOT.

The 'main' battery is only ever going to see what the alternator puts out which is IMO not enough to properly maintain the cranking battery for a full and reasonably long life.

The DC-DC charger is only going to further impact the cranking battery negatively as it becomes 'another' load on the alternator dragging the voltage even lower. YES, the DC-DC charger is going to look after the Aux battery reasonably well but again if anything all it is going to do is speed up the already shorter life of your cranking battery thats charged by the smart alternator.

Id also support the other guys in that the alternator is capable of bulk charging the batteries much quicker then a 20A DC-DC Charger.

As for the costs... I think i payed around $80 for the Redarc SBi12 and $40-50bux for the voltage booster diode. Hard to argue for any DC-DC chargers out there again if your just wanting to charge and isolate an Auxiliary battery in your vehicle.

If your going to use a DC-DC charger in a modern vehicle with a 'smart alternator' then you still need to boost the alternators voltage anyways so the cranking battery is properly cared for too.

Travis.

[winniliss Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close winniliss]

All this information must be an overload to some. Main points to consider are:

Where you live and or do most of your driving. I live in Darwin where it is 30deg most of the year. As a result my charging voltage with a booster diode is about 13.7 - 13.9vdc. The only time I constantly see 14.2v or so is when I drive down south.

Second thing is, once you know what your average charge voltage will be is battery selection. You need to find out what your battery's charging requirements are and see if your average charging voltage will accommodate this and how long it will take to charge the battery and how much by. You will then have different considerations for your starter and aux battery/s such winching, what ancillary items you will be supplying power to when your vehicle is not running etc.

Once that is sorted you can then look at what product you need to achieve this...

Winston.

[winniliss Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close winniliss]

As Roo pointed out "Another thing that is a piss off, it that the Ctek 250 Dual doesn't charge the cranking battery, so where do you get that from?"

D250S DUAL
FEATURES:
• Multi-step 20A temperature compensated battery charging and battery maintenance.
• Battery separation of Starter and Service batteries.
• Maximum power point tracking for solar panels charging the Service battery.
• Two power source inputs (alternator, solar, wind, Supply battery and other).
• Coordination of the two inputs, allowing parallel operation.
• The solar input will also charge and maintain the Starter battery. • Built in battery guard for the starter battery.

http://www.ctek.com/Archive/ProductM...%20DUAL_EN.pdf

What should have been stated in previous posts was that when connected to a solar panel the Ctek 250 will charge the starter battery.

Winston

[Guest Close Guest]

Time to stop the dcdc/ dual battery argument gents.
Roo you have crossed the line threatening multiple members, this will not be tolerated.

I'd suggest highly if others don't want holidays to calm it down now..

[drivesafe Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close drivesafe]

• The solar input will also charge and maintain the Starter battery. • Built in battery guard for the starter battery.

Hi Winston and that is a feature that can be used when the motor is not running, but this is not what was being implied.

Anyway, rather than inflame this thread any further, if others want to know how to set their Toyotas up to be able to replace the maximum used battery capacity in the shortest drive time, in the most fuel efficient way, which is the one of the points of having a dual battery set up, can I suggest they start a new thread.

[LeighW Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close LeighW]

Hi Piggy,

No problem, once exchange of view points degrades to threats of physical violence nothing
worthwhile is going to be achieved anyway.

Cheers
Leigh

[dieselfitter Banned Find all posts View Profile Close dieselfitter]

The 150 series Dual Battery Guide

I don't normally come onto this site. I normally just stay with closed sites for diesel fitters.
I think it's important what I have to say.
I have known John for 15 years now, and while he has some bad qualities, like getting angry pretty quick, dishonesty is not one of his traits.
Jim and Leigh, you should be ashamed of yourselves for implying that John was dishonest with his posts.
Piggy, it's your loss, not John's loss.
He will just go onto other sites and help out more there.
I think if someone can't back up there claims about someone being dishonest, and I know John is definitely not dishonest, this should not be said, at all.
After all, it's actually against the law to do so and this should reflect in your rules.
I note, that I read that post, and there was no thread of physical violence in it. The man just stated that the Gold Coast is closer than SA, and that he wanted to catch up with two of you.
I used to be a fan of MickL, and sadly you banned him to. <Admin: incorrect he is still a member here>
These people are not a dime a dozen you know. People with this sort of knowledge don't come along very often. These people empower people to do their own work, as so many have experienced on here with John.
This will also sent a message to all diesel fitters, as John is held in high regard within the industry.
He is pretty up there with his knowledge, at least on your products, the Prados, and the Landcruisers.
If you are going to ban John, then Drivesafe should be banned for saying he is dishonest, and the other personal attacks. That is only fair, Piggy. < Admin note: drive safe is not going around threatening others>
Back on subject, I will keep it short and sweet, Tim and Leigh, you are wrong, and the Ctek 250 Dual is a much better option then a isolator on these vehicles.
My two cents worth, and John didn't start this either.
Matthew.

<Admn note:then why are you posting from the same IP address that john last used.. ..?
I smell a sock puppet..>

[dieselfitter Banned Find all posts View Profile Close dieselfitter]

The 150 series Dual Battery Guide

Oh, by the way, I am not like John, and I don't care if you ban me.
I don't give a dam about your site, as with most diesel fitters.
I only work on the big stuff anyway.
Like I said, it's your loss, Piggy.
What sort of name is that anyway, Piggy, gee, I don't know about these public forums. I find them pretty strange.
By the way, some time back, John let me use his email address, in case I started to get emails from you lot. I am not like John, I only help out people that I know and like.
Matthew.

<Admin note: really your not like him??. I think more than you realise, i find it Odd that your using the same IP address to make your posts as Roo was on his last posts...... 108.162.250.121..
And as a note he banned himself by threatening not one but three members.
And as you don't care about our site you won't mind being banned as well for trolling..>

[drivesafe Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close drivesafe]

Hi dieselfitter and you are as entitled to your option as I and anyone else is.

In this case, your mate made a number of statements, one of which I specifically give him the opportunity to explain.

He chose to attack anyone who didn’t see things the way he did.

Now back to what started this debate in the first place, dieselfitter, why is the Ctek a better option.

What do you base your claim on. This is all that was asked of ########## and he than came back with fairy tales.

And please note, while ########## may have believed these fairy tales to be fact, but they were still nothing more than advertising based fairy tales.

Now I am a manufacturer of equipment that works better at recharge batteries than these devices do, but I choose not to lie about what my products can actually achieve.

LeighW is in the same boat, but we have to compete in a market place that is littered with companies who are happily prepared to use any advertising scam they can, to give their products market place advantages based on nothing more than unsubstantiated claims.

Now again, you state that a Ctek is a much better option than an isolator, and with the exception of my isolators, I partially agree with you.

But if a Toyota owner wants the fastest recharge time, plus the advantage of additional ampere hours to power their accessories from the same amount of battery capacity one of your Cteks is charging, plus the added advantage of having their cranking battery kept in a higher state of charge and having a much longer life span, then the perfect dual battery set up is one of LeighW’s fuses, one of my isolators and an Optima Yellow Top auxiliary battery.

There is no other dual battery set up that will give you anywhere near all the features and advantages this set up offers.

The ball is in your court dieselfitter!

[AJ120 Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close AJ120]

I used to be a fan of MickL, and sadly you banned him to. These people are not a dime a dozen you know. .

MickL was never banned, he started a new business and had a new baby at about the same time. Like lots of us his life just got busy and PP was no longer a prioritory for him. His in laws live around the corner from me, I was only talking to his BIL the other day, so I am sure I could get in touch with Mick and have him post the truth if you like!

MickL certainly was a good member, and good bloke although I only met him the once.

Cheers Andrew