NCOP for QLD finally!

[mickmac_42 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close mickmac_42]

So if you have a 50mm Suspension Lift, or up to a 25mm lift from a larger profile tyre (max 50mm larger than standard tyre dia for ADR Category MC Four Wheel Drive Vehicles) or a combination of both, then your vehicle is legal provided its not more than a 50mm lift.

This is correct. No more than 50mm suspension lift. No more than 75mm lift from suspension and wheel height. Otherwise you need certification.

Mike

[mjrandom Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close mjrandom]

This is correct. No more than 50mm suspension lift. No more than 75mm lift from suspension and wheel height. Otherwise you need certification.

Mike

Mike I don't think you are right though I am happy to be corrected. As Andrew pointed out on page 1 or 2 if the TOTAL lift is no more than 50mm you are fine. LS9 and LS10 don't apply. If you don't have ESC then you can go to 75mm TOTAL lift with a combination of suspension and tyres but if you have ESC then 50mm is it.

The regulations are not differentiating any increase in the centre of mass and it doesn't matter if that is by tyre increase or suspension lift. The only qualification is body lift which has different rules again.

I don't beleive the legislation is retrospective so compliance to previous rules are ok provided the work was done before the codes were introduced, so I guess I scraped in by a few days with my replacement OME suspension. I do believe that even if the vehicle predates the code but the work is done after the code is in place you must comply with the code.

As I said will call an engineer from the Dept next week and check his interpretation.

I am not really bothered so much about the Dept or Police but I don't want an insurance company to say 'we interpret this as ... and your claim is denied.'

[Jeffers Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close Jeffers]

Mike I don't think you are right though I am happy to be corrected. As Andrew pointed out on page 1 or 2 if the TOTAL lift is no more than 50mm you are fine. LS9 and LS10 don't apply. If you don't have ESC then you can go to 75mm TOTAL lift with a combination of suspension and tyres but if you have ESC then 50mm is it.

The regulations are not differentiating any increase in the centre of mass and it doesn't matter if that is by tyre increase or suspension lift. The only qualification is body lift which has different rules again.

I don't beleive the legislation is retrospective so compliance to previous rules are ok provided the work was done before the codes were introduced, so I guess I scraped in by a few days with my replacement OME suspension. I do believe that even if the vehicle predates the code but the work is done after the code is in place you must comply with the code.

As I said will call an engineer from the Dept next week and check his interpretation.

I am not really bothered so much about the Dept or Police but I don't want an insurance company to say 'we interpret this as ... and your claim is denied.'

I tend to agree with you mjrandom.

The LS9 and LS10 code only applies if your lift exceeds 50mm...

Will be interesting to hear what the engineers from QLD Transport have to say.

Cheers,

Jeff

[DaveZ Member Find all posts View Profile Close DaveZ]

There's meant to be a phasing in period of 6 months where both codes will apply. But I agree, 50mm seems to be the limit if they (being the manufacturer or Transport Dept) deem either mod to affect the stability control. That seems to be the only sticking point, will the tyres or suspension lift affect the stability control?? I don't think so, the tyre size increase is minimal and even all round, so should have little to no impact, as for suspension, I'm not sure, but would think most aftermarket suspensions result in better handling despite the increased height. But at the end of the day it'll be up to the powers that be.

[gxllouie Member Find all posts View Profile Close gxllouie]

as i said earlier, the way the NCOP reads, even a 50mm lift is not permitted. it's in the introduction section of the code. it states:

ESC is programmed by the vehicle manufacturer for the vehicle to which it is fitted taking into account a number of design parameters such as; brake, engine and transmission performance, tyre specifications, steering systems, suspension (type and performance characteristics), mass of the vehicle and weight distribution.

For modifications such as those to the features listed above, evidence should be obtained either from the vehicle manufacturer or through testing to determine the impact on the ESC system. To remain within the scope of VSB 14, a vehicle fitted with ESC must not be modified if the operation of the ESC is affected unless the ESC system is adjusted accordingly.

having said this, how they can prove the esc is affected is beyond me. also i don't know why they are placing such emphasis on this either - as far as i'm aware there's no law saying you have to have your esc on anyway.

[mickmac_42 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close mickmac_42]

MJ, you're corret. And Jeffers, you're correct. And Dave, you're correct. And gxllouie, you're also correct.

TMR has adopted NCOP with some modifications which are called QCOP. QCOP defers to NCOP as the parent document. NCOP does not yet reference QCOP. Until it does, LS07 and LS08 are the guidelines. LS09 and LS10 have no weight while NCOP does not refer to QCOP guidelines.

As Dave rightly points out, there is a 6 month changeover period to allow for all the necessary changes to be made and everyone to work out what's going on...

But... all this is irrelevant because as gxllouie has written, no changes can be made to the configuration of your car from how it was made at the factory. Nada, zip, zilch, zero, unless the ESC system is adjusted accordingly. No towbars because the weight distribution will be changed. No change in tyres from the grandtrek because the tyre specifications may be different. Shocks and springs must be original equipment if you need to replace them. Can't have a different dampening or spring rate. Bull bar? You've gotta be kidding.

We all know that making these modifications isn't going to cause your car to go barreling off the road at the first corner and result in the flaming deaths of all on board because these cars are designed with tolerances in mind. Unfortunately for us this section has been poorly written and is vague, and understandably so. It would be horrifically expensive to conduct comprehensive testing on every vehicle available with every modification available and specifically detail what mods are allowed. Yet they can't just leave the issue of detrimental impacts of aftermarket modifications on ESC go unmentioned, so they've thrown in this blanket "if the ESC is affected."

I've spoken with a number of different TMR inspectors and nobody gave me a straight answer, black and white, this is what you can and can not do. I've spoken with the good people at Toyota and while they claim their products are approved to be fitted to the vehicle, nobody is prepared to put pen to paper and say what affect their products will have on ESC. I haven't check, but i'm going to assume it's the same with ARB, TJM, Ironman, etc. They're all certified by their manufacturer, but are they certified by the vehicle manufacturer and does anybody know what effect the modification will have. Nobody knows if the modification is okay to be used in conjunction with other modifications of theirs or other manufacturers. RACQ was no help. They could only tell me that while my police could be expanded to include replacement costs of modifications, it would be voided if the cause of any damage was attributed to the modifications i'd made.

How are we meant to have our ESC system "adjusted accordingly" if nobody knows.

My solution is to ignore the ESC caveat they've thrown in there. It's a broken arse-covering caveat. How can i be found to be in contravention of a standard when nobody knows what the standard is (I'll be pleased for somebody to correct me on this).

If we take the ESC out of consideration and assume that at the end of the 6 month changeover period the NCOP will correctly reference the QCOP, then the provisions of LS09 should apply. If total vehicle lift (excluding body lifts) is greater than 50mm but less than 75mm and suspension list is not greater than 50mm, the modification only needs to comply with LS10. It does not require any testing or certification to prove compliance.

Despite my long-winded rant, i wouldn't get too excited about this unless you're planning on modding your car so that it stands out. There's already enough tonka truck hiluxs and patrols on the road to keep the traffic cops and TMR inspectors happy. It'll probably be the insurance company who'll shaft you.

Mike

[Jeffers Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close Jeffers]

Well written Mike.
You're right, the reason everyone is uncertain on this is because the ESC is such a grey area.

Cheers,

Jeff

[dingdong Lurker Find all posts View Profile Close dingdong]

Hi people , sorry to say , but some of us are not right up there with all the , ESC,NCOP,TMR,QCOP,LS9,LS10, some times it makes things hard to follow ,as some of us are just normal or old educated people, & we end up saying what the .

[Jeffers Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close Jeffers]

Hi people , sorry to say , but some of us are not right up there with all the , ESC,NCOP,TMR,QCOP,LS9,LS10, some times it makes things hard to follow ,as some of us are just normal or old educated people, & we end up saying what the .

Hi dingdong,

Just to keep you in the loop, all of these abbreviations are found in the following link...

http://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/~/media/Sa...ations1112.pdf

Also,

ESC - Electronic Stability Control
NCOP - National Code of Practice
QCOP - Queensland Code of Practice
TMR - Department of Transport and Main Roads
LS9 - Code for High Lift 50mm~125mm Design
LS10 - Code for High Lift 50mm~125mm Modification

I hope this helps.

Cheers,

Jeff

[dingdong Lurker Find all posts View Profile Close dingdong]

thanks for that , was not winging but just pointing out gets a bit hard at times .

[gxllouie Member Find all posts View Profile Close gxllouie]

thanks mike for spelling it all out.

i don't really care about the boys in blue or tmr for that matter, my only concern is how insurance companies are going to interpret and apply new laws.

louie

[mjrandom Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close mjrandom]

OK from the horse's mouth.

If ESC is fitted you can legally do nothing that is not approved by the manufacturer. No body lifts, no suspension lifts, no tyre increases that would also lift the vehicle.

According to the engineer I spoke with the consultative group that put the codes together included representatives from manufacturers and it was clear that they are not interested in any changes to their product. In essence 'we' have spent millions building a 4x4 that complies with the ADRs and that's it. Realistically it also means less strain on their products because a standard 4x4 cannot go anywhere as far as one that has some sensible modifications. I am not talking about extreme lifts here.

Where does this leave us?

-Buy a dual cab ute to modify for off road since they don't need ESC to be imported. Up to 125mm lift with tyres, suspension and body lift is ok!

-Until April 1st next year comply under the old system which limits 2" lift and up to 15mm increase in tyre diameter.

-Give it away.

-Third party parts are certified as below...

The manufacturer of the modification certifies that the vehicle so modified both complies with the ADRs and also states that the vehicle acts the way it was meant to act from the OEM. In essence that the vehicle still meets the ADRs and complies as it did when unmodified. If this 'evidence' was provided the Dept against Transport would be happy.

When pressed on what tests under LS9 & 10 would comply the Dept engineer couldn't answer because no one knows.

The guy I spoke with went further and suggested that none of the current crop of bullbars or suspension lifts meet the current ADRs as none are listed with the Department as having been tested and approved.

And this is not just restricted to Qld, the NCOP is intended to be the same.

Interesting stuff.

The frustrating thing is that I know that my modified 120 with factory ESC, EBD, MOUSE etc operates far more safely than it ever did with the standard tyres and suspension. It doesn't wallow over the slightest undulation, the tyres actually grip when the road is wet and muddy. Etc etc.

Sam from ARB would you care to comment on what ARB's intentions are? I know there are plenty who will run the gauntlet and keep modifying regardless but are ARB interested in testing and if so what impact will there be on $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$?

Michael

[Dusty74 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Dusty74]

I take it back, get rid of NCOP! What was I thinking, oh yeah that's right, I thought common sense would prevail and a modification to enhance a vehicles performance on and off road would be acceptable. What do I do now with my investment of approximately $85k on a car I enjoy using on and off road? I can feel a rant coming on and I will stop there. All I can say now is WTF!

Cheers,
Dusty

[D4D Addicted PP Member Find all posts View Profile Close D4D]

The guy I spoke with went further and suggested that none of the current crop of bullbars or suspension lifts meet the current ADRs as none are listed with the Department as having been tested and approved.

I'm pretty sure ARB are already all over this.

What is interesting is if this is retrospective.

[Jeffers Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close Jeffers]

Hi Michael, what do you mean by this comment?

-Until April 1st next year comply under the old system which limits 2" lift and up to 15mm increase in tyre diameter.

Does this mean if you get a 2" lift before 1st April 2013 it will still be legal?

Cheers,

Jeff