diesel rattle in D4D Prado

[DocK Member Find all posts View Profile Close DocK]

Re: diesel rattle in D4D Prado

Thanks Mark - Injectors checked at service and "all within spec" - they cant work out the cold start problem, let alone the cold start rattle. Have to crank it over - let it rest and repeat this a few times on cold mornings especially. I am no expert but a glow plug problem comes to mind - but Service guys say everything is "in spec - sorry". :evil:

[PeteS Member Find all posts View Profile Close PeteS]

Re: The D4D Death Shudder

..... I was towing my caravan and, just past Liverpool in Sydney, the car shuddered. I very quickly realised that there was something amiss with the D4D Prado which was emitting clouds of greyish smoke out of the exhaust. Not what I expected at just 68,761km! Especially as I hadn’t experienced the “Death Rattle” to any real extent.....

Well I'm sad to say Grey Nomad but I have now experienced the very same "Death Rattle" and we were also towing our caravan when this happened. My Prado is Jan 2007 and has done just over 200k. The 200k is no real measure as they were very easy running conditions as I travel at least 250km per day on a freeway, in fact it's so easy travelling that my first lot of Grandtreks lasted me 130k.

The cause it yet unknown, however I have no. 3 piston with a hole/crack in it. I don't know if this was a contrubuting factcor however I had only just picked the Prado up a week before from a smash repair shop after a front ender. On the weekend (2 days after pickup and having done approx. 400km) I gave the vehicle a quick check over and found that I had no coolant at all in the bottle or any water in the windscreen bottle, they obviously had forgotten to fill it or fill it properly. I was pretty upset but did not think much more of it. I don’t know as yet if the head is cracked as yet.

The next weekend we took the Prado and our van away and we were heading home on the Sunday when I just started t climb a hill and then lost power all of a sudden. It was running really rough and I had no power at all.

Either way, whatever the problem, it seems there is a looming cost in the region of $20k for a short motor...... I’m not impressed

Below are some photo’s




(the hole with scouring of the wall)


Notice the gunk lining the wall of the manifold

Cheers
PeteS

[samo Addicted PP Member Find all posts View Profile Close samo]

Re: The D4D Death Shudder

bugger pete that looks expensive, up until then have you had any trouble with your d4d. cheers samo

[PeteS Member Find all posts View Profile Close PeteS]

Re: The D4D Death Shudder

bugger pete that looks expensive, up until then have you had any trouble with your d4d. cheers samo

G'day Samo

No, I have had problems prior to this. I'm really annoyed as in my ind I could never have looked after the engine any better. I always let the engine idle down before turning it off etc (even longer when towing). In fact when it happened I had only just said to the missus that I'll sit behind another car & caravan in front of us and take it easy.

So far 2010 is not a good year for me. It started with the guy not giving way at the roundabout. No sooner had the panel beater started work and they found the front inner guards on both sides had badly cracked (all genuine Toyota bullbar and winch fitted) and now the 'Death Shudder". Things can only get better ..... I think :?

Cheers
PeteS

[Davros Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close Davros]

Re: The D4D Death Shudder

There is no way a short motor should cost you $20K :shock:

I know of a wrecker that has an 08 D4D Prado that was centre punched and written off. I think the engine only has about 6000kms on it from memory.
If you want the details, let me know and I will go through my emails to track down his details.

best of luck.

Steve

[gxl_d4d Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close gxl_d4d]

Re: The D4D Death Shudder

The crud in the intake is fouling from the EGR mixed with oil fumes from the PCV system. This was found to be the reason why a lot of patrol engines were holing pistons.

A few things can be done to slow the buildup ie fit a oil separator on the PCV system, block the EGR all together or work out a way to clean the intake regularly.

Subaru have a foam that is required to be sprayed into the intake manifold at service intervals to clean up gunk build up. I'm not sure if using the subaru cleaner would have any ill effects on a diesel engine or any sensors connected to the intake.

[leachy_9 Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close leachy_9]

Re: The D4D Death Shudder

PeteS,

have you had injector # 3 inspected / tested ? This looks similar to other pics I have seen of dead D4D engines where an injector has been leaking.

Leachy

[PeteS Member Find all posts View Profile Close PeteS]

Re: The D4D Death Shudder

The crud in the intake is fouling from the EGR mixed with oil fumes from the PCV system. This was found to be the reason why a lot of patrol engines were holing pistons.

I just thought the crud was from when the hole happened and the oil being forced into the manifold. Are you saying this has built up over time? If so I have been driving around with a really restricted exhaust manifold.

PeteS

[PeteS Member Find all posts View Profile Close PeteS]

Re: The D4D Death Shudder

.. have you had injector # 3 inspected / tested ? This looks similar to other pics I have seen of dead D4D engines where an injector has been leaking.

G'day Leachy
No I haven't had the injector checked, I will however ask as I'm awaiting a full report. I ask the service guys to do stricly as per the service book however I'm not sure when the injectors were checked (if ever?).

I woud have though I would notice a leaky injector. Excuse my ignorance but why would a leaky injector cause this as I would have though too much fuel would have caused incomplete combustion and lower temp.

I've always been paranoid about getting dirty fuel and wrecking the engine when travelling in the outback. I'm thinking the Common Rail diesels are far too touchy and I'd be better of with a petrol engine?

Cheers
PeteS

[Bankrupt Member Find all posts View Profile Close Bankrupt]

Re: The D4D Death Shudder

Good news that it all got sorted out.

I also know someone who had this happen only on a petrol...Holden called it 'Hydraulicing' or something similar. Basically leaky injector, cylinder fill with fuel...liquid doesn't compress like air so pop goes the piston.

Interesting that they said this happened whilst the motor was running...I'd think that the injector would struggle to pump out enough juice to cause this in the small timeframe as the motor cycles but maybe I'm worng.


On a more general note...everyone needs to remember that the 3yr factory warranty is in addition to your statutory warranties under the Fair Trade Act. It's not an exact science but you may well have cover after your 3yrs are up if the item / type of failure is one which means the vehicle fails to meet the required fitness for purpose test. Basically as consumers what life would we expect out of a passenger car given its value. 60,000kms is low in my opinion and an engine failure that wasn't due to to something you can pinpoitn it to i.e. burnouts etc would be likely to fail the test resulting in the manufacturer having to warrant at least some of the costs of the repair if not all.

I recently had a client whose M3 dropped a valve whilst driving to work...it was one month out of warranty...totalled the motor. BMW coughed up a brand newie no questions asked...in fact they said that the consumer watch dog wouldn't let them get away with anything less.

Interesting...though I reckon it would be a hell of a fight.

[PeteS Member Find all posts View Profile Close PeteS]

Re: The D4D Death Shudder

...everyone needs to remember that the 3yr factory warranty is in addition to your statutory warranties under the Fair Trade Act. It's not an exact science but you may well have cover after your 3yrs are up if the item / type of failure is one which means the vehicle fails to meet the required fitness for purpose test

G'day Bankrupt
Thanks for the info and it's good to remind all that there may be a recourse after warranty expires. Unfortunately my problem isn't sorted yet. They are still assessing the damage and trying to find how/what. Even then I doubt if I will know for sure the exact how/what caused it, let alone trying to put my hand up to Toyota. The way it's going I can see it being 4 weeks before I get the vehicle back.

I'm using the 'fit for purpose' argument with all the cracks I have just had on the front inner guards. To me the cracks are definetely a Toyota problem and as I have since found out this fault is well known in the industry and even documented by NRMA in their March 2010 magazine. They still kept saying to me in a sweet and inoccent tone, "we've never heard of that before". They forget the keen owners who are members of forums such as this soon know they are huge liars.

Cheers
PeteS

[adrian5800 Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close adrian5800]

Re: The D4D Death Shudder

Well I'm sad to say Grey Nomad but I have now experienced the very same "Death Rattle" and we were also towing our caravan when this happened. My Prado is Jan 2007 and has done just over 200k. The 200k is no real measure as they were very easy running conditions as I travel at least 250km per day on a freeway, in fact it's so easy travelling that my first lot of Grandtreks lasted me 130k.

The cause it yet unknown, however I have no. 3 piston with a hole/crack in it. I don't know if this was a contrubuting factcor however I had only just picked the Prado up a week before from a smash repair shop after a front ender. On the weekend (2 days after pickup and having done approx. 400km) I gave the vehicle a quick check over and found that I had no coolant at all in the bottle or any water in the windscreen bottle, they obviously had forgotten to fill it or fill it properly. I was pretty upset but did not think much more of it. I don’t know as yet if the head is cracked as yet.

The next weekend we took the Prado and our van away and we were heading home on the Sunday when I just started t climb a hill and then lost power all of a sudden. It was running really rough and I had no power at all.

Either way, whatever he rpoblem it seems there is a looming cost in the region of $20k for a short motor...... I’m not impressed


Notice the gunk lining the wall of the manifold

Cheers
PeteS

Interesting photos there Pete, it's unusual to see a hole like that in a diesel piston. The crack in the crown and the galling on the cylinder wall would indicate localised overheating of the piston. I would guess the choked inlet manifold and faulty no 3 injector was the cause - liquid fuel burning on the crown of the piston. Does no 2 piston show signs of erosion on the crown or is it the photo and my eyes?

No I haven't had the injector checked, I will however ask as I'm awaiting a full report. I ask the service guys to do stricly as per the service book however I'm not sure when the injectors were checked (if ever?).

I woud have though I would notice a leaky injector. Excuse my ignorance but why would a leaky injector cause this as I would have though too much fuel would have caused incomplete combustion and lower temp.

I've always been paranoid about getting dirty fuel and wrecking the engine when travelling in the outback. I'm thinking the Common Rail diesels are far too touchy and I'd be better of with a petrol engine?

Cheers
PeteS

Injectors aren't checked on service, the techs only report engine operation, noise etc. Checking electronic injectors requires specialist gear that no dealer would possess.

Good news that it all got sorted out.

I also know someone who had this happen only on a petrol...Holden called it 'Hydraulicing' or something similar. Basically leaky injector, cylinder fill with fuel...liquid doesn't compress like air so pop goes the piston.

Interesting that they said this happened whilst the motor was running...I'd think that the injector would struggle to pump out enough juice to cause this in the small timeframe as the motor cycles but maybe I'm worng.

It would be very unusual for a diesel engine to hydraulic on fuel, the amount in the cylinder would have to be very significant. Coolant leaking into the cylinder is the usual cause and then the resultant effect is a bent con rod not a hole in the piston crown.


Good luck with your claim

Cheers

Adrian (diesel mechanic for 26yrs)

[PeteS Member Find all posts View Profile Close PeteS]

Re: The D4D Death Shudder

.... Interesting photos there Pete, it's unusual to see a hole like that in a diesel piston. The crack in the crown and the galling on the cylinder wall would indicate localised overheating of the piston. I would guess the choked inlet manifold and faulty no 3 injector was the cause - liquid fuel burning on the crown of the piston. Does no 2 piston show signs of erosion on the crown or is it the photo and my eyes? Cheers Adrian

G'day Adrian

Thanks for the input, I really appreciate your advice. I have just been told the hole has burnt through to the ring landing (not a surprise to me). They are now sending the injectors away for testing. I guess this has to be done to work out what the cause really is.

So you believe the gunk buildup in the manifold has occured well before the failure?

Below are 2 photos of #2 piston. I can't work out if it is erosion or just a build up of gunk.




Cheers
PeteS

[White Lightning Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close White Lightning]

Re: The D4D Death Shudder

this reeks of the nissan patrol zd30 problem.

yes all that crud has built up over the last 200k.
Its hot exhaust gas mixed with oil blow by fom the PCV. Thanks to greenies, car manufactureres inject this mix back into the cycle to burn some more & more & more before it comes out the taill pipe

When i pulled apart my old nissan, i was spooning this crap out like icecream,,,,only 75k on the clock.

Looks like we need some guinee pigs to start blocking the EGR valve....or a spray can
You would think that the inlet manifold is as clean as the day it was made.....Nope its usually half blocked by 50k

[gxl_d4d Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close gxl_d4d]

Re: The D4D Death Shudder

Wynns make a spray called EGR3. I tried to find out where to buy it from but Wynns' never got back to me.